Talk:Hawaiian pizza

Origin of Hawaiian Pizza

The article begins claiming that it originated in Canada (with a whopping SIX citations, potentially violating WP:OVERCITE).

However, in the archives of the talk section, a two users noted that the original sources were uncited and lead to circular references, as other websites cited the original unsourced claim, and the article began citing those websites. Furthermore, additional research has come about casting doubt on the original claim.

This link shows many references to both Hawaiian Pizza, pineapple on pizza, and the combination of pineapple and pork products on pizza, well before the claimed creation in 1962. Furthermore, it would not be a stretch for Mr. Panopoulos to have claimed inventing Hawaiian Pizza as it would likely drive traffic to his restaurant. I would argue that this article be rewritten to mention the many instances of variations of Hawaiian Pizza before Mr. Panopoulos's claimed creation, and not speak so definitively on the origins of the style of pizza. 50.193.29.109 (talk) 23:19, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

The citations were an intentional choice by the editors. This article received many vandalisms and people simply didn't believe it was a Canadian dish given the name "Hawaiian". The amount of credible source here is appropriate.

Your link (source) is a blog - not a credible source as opposed to the ones we display on this article including BBC, CBC, the Guardian, and Globe and Mail. Your source's author also describes himself as "life-long resident of Massachusetts, a licensed attorney, and have been involved in food and wine writing for about 16 years" so he has the inherent incentive to claim the dish is not Canadian - similar to what you're suggesting. His background as a lawyer and simple "involvement in food and wine writing" proves he is not an expert or food historian. Your points about how the current citations are based off unoriginal website is false. Please read the articles. Also, "additional research has come casting doubt" - you did not provide any research and the reality is any credible source out there points to it being a Canadian dish. If anything, over the years, there are even more credible research/articles solidifying the dish being Canadian.

Your speculation that "Mr. Panopoulos" to claim to drive traffic to his restaurant is pure guess. That's your own opinion. Ultimately, the overwhelming credible research provided in this article proving this is a Canadian along with other editors consensus will prompt this article to stay the way it is. - Kazuha1029 (talk) 01:23, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

The first addition of the claim of Canadian creation to the article occurred here [1]. The first citation added to that claim was the Village Voice, who cited Wikipedia as the source of the claim, and by their own admission was unable to substantiate the claims outside of speaking to Mr. Panopoulos himself. In the next few citations added, in this version of the article, the National Post cites Wikipedia and Mr. Panopoulos, the Chatham Daily News cites Mr. Panopoulos alone, the Sun and [London Free Press which are both the same article cites Wikipedia and Mr. Panopoulos.

In the most recent version of the article, the BBC only cites Mr. Panopoulos here; TIME cites the BBC article , the CBC only cites Mr. Panopoulos; Business Insider cites the CBC article, Mr. Panopoulos, and Atlas Obscura which only cites Mr. Panopoulos; The Globe and Mail cites the CBC article, and even mentions the original unsourced claim from Wikipedia and the Village Voice article; and finally The Guardian cites the BBC and the CBC articles.

Many of the earliest citations referenced Wikipedia itself, violating WP:CIRCULAR. None of the articles cited in the current version of the article perform any research deeper than an interview of the person in question, violating WP:PRIMARY - there are no menus from back then, there are no news articles back then discussing the dish, there are no advertisements featuring the dish, et cetera. The blog post I linked includes references to instances of the term "Hawaiian pizza" and pineapple on pizza existing before the alleged creation in 1962. I have contacted the blog post writer requesting direct links to the references and will add to this talk page if I receive them.

To discount the blog writer as being non-credible due to his background is as to claim that you are biased for being a Canadian citizen, which I would not claim and do not believe. Regardless of his background, he has referenced many sources which would meet reliability standards on their own - please read his blog post. Further, to say that his incentives to claim the dish is not Canadian is on par the incentive that Mr. Panopoulos would have to claim to be the inventor of the dish is a false equivalency - one is performing research for a personal blog, and the other was laying claim to an internationally famous dish. 50.193.29.109 (talk) 18:43, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

It is important to remember that pineapple pizza does not equate Hawaiian pizza. There could be cases or food where they add pineapple to pie-like or pizzas, but it was not coined as "Hawaiian Pizza". For example, just because someone added gravy, cheese curds and meat to fries, does not make them the inventor of poutine. The Globe and Mail article actually explained it really well. Prior to Sam's invention and calling it "Hawaiian", and yes Wikipedia's citation (which resulted in Chatham Daily interviewing him, making his Hawaiian pizza famous), the term "Hawaiian Pizza" is unheard of. There are pizzerias in the States (or anywhere else) that adds pineapple to pizzas (maybe), but that is not the Hawaiian pizza where he added ham and as other sources pointed out, some Chinese cuisine elements.

The same Globe and Mail article explained: "Recipes published by U.S. newspapers in the late 1950s included pineapple pizzas, though these were to be served with almonds and cinnamon as dessert pie", this proves my point that these pineapple pizzas did not equate Hawaiian pizza. Therefore, you are free to create a new article called Pineapple Pizza if you like and credit it based on your own research. But Hawaiian Pizza is indeed invented and first credited to Sam and being a staple Canadian dish.

One thing I find problematic with the blog post you provided is the tone it is written in was opinionated (as are most of his articles with "Rant"), and other than himself, literally no one has ever been able to provide the articles he's citing. It is based on a lot of speculation. Here's my commentary on his sources:

1. Oregonian (OR), February 7, 1957: the restaurant owner seems to simply be adding as many countries as they can on the menu, and the recipe is totally different from the Hawaiian we know today (notably with papaya and pepper, we also don't know how they cook it). By the same logic, are you suggesting because he put "Swedish Pizza" on this menu, it automatically makes this restaurant the inventor of such a dish?
2. Honolulu Star-Bulletin, February 12, 1958: different recipe, and cannot find any evidence of this.
3. The Los Angeles Times (CA), March 12, 1958: no idea what the recipe is.
4. Courier-News (NJ), March 20, 1958: the author admitted he has no idea what this is.
5. Quad City Times (IA), September 24, 1958: Like I explained, just because something has pineapple in it doesn't mean it's Hawaiian pizza. Not to mention it is sweet not savory. Remember, today's Hawaiian's pizza is controversial precisely because of its sweet and savory mix (Sam's inspiration from Chinese food), this is so important and I feel like the fact the author just equates all pineapple pizza proves his lack of expertise in this subject matter.
6. Philadelphia Inquirer (PA), August 23, 1959: author admitted he doesn't know as he has no description.
7. Monroe News-Star (LA), October 7, 1959: author admitted this is a totally different recipe.
8. Boston Daily Record, February 17, 1961: I find the author's statement here to be extremely problematic. He doesn't know what this pizza look like, never tasted it, never seen it and never had the recipe. Just because of the name "Hawaiian" he boldly claims this predates the invention of Sam's Hawaiian pizza. The author doesn't even say if there's pineapple in it this time and he directly claims this is the Hawaiian pizza we know today?
9. St. Louis Post-Dispatch (MO), October 12, 1961: this time it is not even called Hawaiian, it was simply "Pineapple Cheese Pizza", again, this does not equate "Hawaiian Pizza". We also do not know the recipe.

Ultimately, you cannot deny that the above sources the blogger pointed out were trivial at best. None of these restaurants were "famous" for their Hawaiian pizza and their recipe were drastically different. None of these restaurants ever tried to debate they are the inventor of Hawaiian Pizza either. Sam P. invented the "Hawaiian pizza" we know today and it is cited by all major credible news outlets, especially with the interviews directly with the inventor like you said. None of the sources the blogger pointed out had any detailed interviews or research, it was simply mentions. It is also extremely unlikely that Sam would somehow eat/copy the "Hawaiian pizza" in the States and claim he invented Hawaiian (back then internet was not as widespread). Perhaps throughout the history of time, both Canada and USA had have many chefs make "pineapple pizza", but it is Sam P. who made this dish and its recipe we know today. Therefore, I do not think this article requires any revision.Kazuha1029 (talk) 01:36, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Nah it’s totally not from canada lmao 2600:1702:1B20:CB20:1C84:F351:E9E8:8781 (talk) 01:28, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 November 2023

please let me edit im Italian 135.180.29.34 (talk) 19:39, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone may add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:56, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Not an ingrediens

Pizza dough is not 1 ingredience. It's a collection of ingredience. 188.113.95.213 (talk) 08:27, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

It would not be helpful in the context of this article about a specific type of pizza to list of individual components of pizza dough, eg flour water yeast salt or whatever. What the reader needs to know is what makes this distinctive from otehr pizzas. Ponsonby100 (talk) 09:39, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

So write "contains" instead of "ingredients" or write the ingredients of the pizza dough in it's own paragraf under the "ingredients". 188.113.95.213 (talk) 10:58, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

No. Ponsonby100 (talk) 12:26, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Then delete the whole wikipedia page about the Hawaiian pizza. 188.113.95.213 (talk) 13:36, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Change of name from Hawaiian to Pineapple

Hello from Hawai'i. I'de like to change the title from Hawaiian to pineapple since in acuality it isn't actually hawaiian at all. it just used dole pineapple which was canned in hawai'i. in the intro it should say "Pineapple pizzatraditionally known as Hawaiian pizza". it's quite misleading even if it is known to have been made in Canada 808Poiboy (talk) 21:42, 20 November 2023 (UTC)808Poiboy (talk) 21:43, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

If you have evidence it is not the WP:COMMONNAME, feel free to present it. There are plenty of things in the world with misleading names (Peanut, Chinese checkers, king crab, etc.). Furthermore, Hawaiian pizza also has ham or bacon, so "pineapple pizza" does not adequately describe the topic. Cerebral726 (talk) 21:46, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

mostly, people base the "Hawaiian pizza' as just pineapple and usually because of the fact of dole pizza. it is true that it has ham and/or bacon. how could we work around this without creating a false statement? it could also say that "even though it is mainly called pineapple pizza, it can come with bacon and/or ham along with it." 808Poiboy (talk) 21:54, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

It’s not our job at Wikipedia to correct common names. This type of pizza is commonly described as Hawaiian. If you can provide reliable sources that the common name in use is « pineapple pizza », please do do. Thanks. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 22:50, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Whoops – I linked to the wrong one. Sorry! Should be: WP:COMMONNAME. That’s the more general discussion. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 03:10, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Your argument doesn't make sense. No one says something should be named based on where it is from. For example: French fries isn't necessarily from France, California roll isn't necessarily from California, Mongolian barbecue is invented in Taiwan not Mongolia, and fuji apple may not be grown in Japan (it's grown across the world). For all we know, the name "Hawaiian" could be inspired by Hawaii's tropical flavor (pineapple), or could be completely random. It doesn't matter, the pizza is named Hawaiian and it's commonly referred as such, even though it is created by a Canadian.Kazuha1029 (talk) 04:15, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Please see MOS:COMMONNAME for more explanation on this point. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk)

Suggest quotes over hawaiian

“Hawaiian” pizza or “Hawaiian pizza” 2603:9001:7C00:CBB:291C:B2B2:1283:98EE (talk) 02:17, 23 January 2024 (UTC)