Talk:Neutral Moresnet

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Neutral Moresnet is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
May 2, 2005	Featured article candidate	Not promoted

old comments[edit]

Interesting. I never knew about this until now. - Anonymous

ankaŭ mi[edit]

Ankaŭ mi.

Neighbours[edit]

The two neighbours are now written out as: "(Prussia on one side, and a succession of countries on the other)". Though I agree that the neighbours should be specified at some point in the article, I'm not sure about this curious list in the introduction. Not just that Prussia later became Germany, but it leaves the reader wondering about this succession. Is there a reason not just to mention (its) two neighbours and leave the details for the article? Aliter 20:07, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Removed neighbour list from introduction, as "discussed". [User:Aliter|Aliter]] 04:56, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Title[edit]

Nope. This is not about the nomination, just about improving the page:

I guess Neutral Moresnet might be a better title: The Mairie Moresnet was split in a Dutch part, a Prusian part, and a neutral part. Neutral Moresnet was the "country". Eventually, all parts became Belgian territory, though. Aliter 21:26, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think that all the parts of Moresnet should be dealt with in the same article. --Error 23:39, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I though about that solution, but it'll be somewhat unbalanced. After all, the other parts just shared their history with the countries they were part of.

Image lettering[edit]

I improve the image at Commons. Can we get the local one deleted? Aliter 15:34, 2 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This creates a problem: At the image page at Commons it says explicitely it's a copy from the en: image. Aliter 13:46, 5 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation[edit]

How is Moresnet pronounced in French (or German or Flemish)? Is it /morne/, /moresne/, /morsnet/? --Cam 05:04, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't speak German French or Flemish but my best guesses are either /moresne/ for french and /moresnet/ for german and flemish --Revolución (talk) 01:35, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The pronunciations are correct; however "Flemish" should of course be "Dutch". :o) And most speakers of Dutch or German would use the French pronunciation. --MWAK 19:18, 18 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I forgot to post that I got an answer to this at my Esperanto user page here. Revolución and MWAK confirm what I was told there: French /moresne/, Dutch /moresnet/. --Cam 20:33, 18 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Prussia?[edit]

It says in this sentence that Prussia existed in 1900, surely this is incorrect seeing as the German Empire replaced Prussia in 1871. Unless I'm missing something here it should say Germany.

"Neither Belgium nor Prussia had ever surrendered its original claim to the territory and around 1900 Prussia in particular was taking a more aggressive stance towards the territory and was accused of sabotage and of obstructing the administrative process in order to force the issue." Hibernian 02:32, 7 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The Kingdom of Prussia was part of the Empire but nevertheless an autonomous state, with its own army till 1918. After the fall of both empire and kingdom it still had its own administration till 1945. Such legal border disputes fell under the competence of the member states. --MWAK 19:18, 18 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge/move[edit]

Neutral Morenset is obviously a spelling error, but the title of this article should be Neutral Moresnet, in my opinion. Moresnet, if the article were to exist at all, would be a stubby article about the town or commune in Belgium called "Moresnet". Neutral Moresnet would be about this historic territory. Just throwing in my two snets :-) --Cam 15:20, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The new Moresnet might redirect to Kelmis, the modern municipality in which Moresnet sensu lato was located. --Cam 15:41, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with Cam on the content of Moresnet and Neutral Moresnet. —Nightstallion (?) 15:52, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps Mayors of Moresnet also should be merged? Bjelleklang - talk 17:43, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No need to discuss the merger. Neutral Morenset [sic] is not an article, only a list of data, much of it duplicated here. All articles linked to it should be redirected, and then I believe it should be deleted - I don't think we want to start having spelling mistakes as redirects unless they're particularly common. The discussion should be on whether to move this article to Neutral Moresnet. If we do, have the towns of Kelmis and Moresnet now grown together, that we'd want to have one redirect to the other? kwami

Actually I sort of garbled things. It seems there are several entities in modern history known as Moresnet, or including the name Moresnet:

the small village of Moresnet itself.
the mairie of Moresnet, formed around 1794 under French administration as part of the département of Ourthe, which included the village of Moresnet. This mairie was divided into three parts in 1816:
- the Dutch/Belgian part which existed as the commune of Moresnet until 1977 when it was fused with nearby communes into the new commune of Plombières. The village is in this part.
- the "neutral" part, described here, known as Neutral-Moresnet or Moresnet-Neutre. After 1920 this was the Belgian commune of Kelmis (French: La Calamine). It became part of an enlarged commune of Kelmis in 1977.
- the Prussian/German part, known as the Gemeinde (commune of) Preußisch Moresnet. After the Versailles Treaty this became the Belgian commune of Neu-Moresnet. It also became part of the commune of Kelmis in 1977.

I think this article should be called Neutral Moresnet. It is only about the neutral territory. Nevertheless I am interested in hearing any arguments in favor of keeping called simply Moresnet. --Cam 05:29, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Since nobody has commented in a few months, I would like to reopen the discussion. I agree that this article's title should be Neutral Moresnet, for all the reasons stated above: it would avoid confusion with the village, mairie, commune, and Gemeinde of Moresnet. Fishal 04:21, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Incorrect Flag Image[edit]

The Moresnet flag should be black, white and blue, not black, white and purple [1]. It is a combination of the Prussian flag of black and white (horizontal bicolor), the the Dutch flag of red, white and blue (horizontal tricolor), with the black coming from Prussia, the white from both Prussia and the Netherlands, and the blue from the Netherlands Landau7 08:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting image[edit]

If you look at [[2]], it is as if the roads leading to the current 3-borders point are named "road of the 3 borders" in French and German, but "road of the 4 borders" in Dutch! This should be added! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.148.225 (talk) 16:13, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is mentioned at Vaalserberg, which deals with the modern border point. --Rumping (talk) 07:44, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Official language[edit]

Does anyone know what was official language of territory? Luka Jačov 18:11, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

French and German, I think (Landau7 (Landau7 (talk) 19:24, 9 December 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Wasn't it Esperanto? Mweites (talk) 16:42, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've found nothing pointing to an "official language" for Neutral Moresnet. This map indicates that Limburgish is spoken where NM used to be. Remain questions such as what language was used for judicial proceedings - for a possible answer, I'll see if I can get a hold of: Mousson, Historische, politische und juristische Monographie über das neutrale Gebiet Moresnet, Aachen 1903. We also know that French law was used for NM. And that German schools were predominant in and around NM. Probably take your pick when it comes to language. -- Iterator12n ^Talk 04:21, 25 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Military[edit]

A source in Russian claims that the state had a symbolic army of one soldier. Can anyone provide additional data? Omeganian 11:46, 4 April 20078 (Israel)

There was no military, although there was a single policeman, referred to as "secretary of war" by the locals. Perhaps the Russian source is referring to that. [3] --Cellophane Red (talk) 19:35, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Conflating the information from several New York Times articles on Moresnet: there was one soldier who doubled up as the local policeman and Secretary of War.

A candidate for a WP April Fool's day entry? Jackiespeel (talk) 15:02, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Currency[edit]

What currency did Neutral Moresnet have? --Osho-jabbe (talk) 22:22, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Legal tender was the french franc. Added a para. on this subject. -- Iterator12n ^Talk 03:42, 25 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Predecessor state(s)[edit]

Right now, for the predecessor states the info box shows the french royal flag and the flag of the german empire. I think it's more correct to show the First French Empire as the predecessor state, with the tricolore. Opposition? -- Iterator12n ^Talk 01:33, 25 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you are correct, no opposition from me. It was part of the Duchy of Limburg within the Spanish/Austrian Netherlands until French takeover in 1794. Never part of Prussia or Germany until 1915. --Cam (talk) 02:51, 25 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

alleged Esperanto connection[edit]

One hears it said that Neutral Moresnet was the subject of an attempt to found a state whose official language would be Esperanto. Shouldn't the article contain a section documenting or refuting this notion? Tom129.93.10.83 (talk) 04:19, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are a few links backing this up (Like this one And this one And finally, this one. )

Thanks Mojosa (talk) 09:00, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Alleged controversy[edit]

I have deleted the "Controversy" section because there was no controversy, just a couple of joky comments on MetaFilter. Please do not try to insert in-jokes from other sites into Wikipedia. Languagehat (talk) 18:10, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Alleged controversy[edit]

Let me just say that I went to some trouble to research that issue, because I and some other folks I know were really questioning whether Moresnet existed. The Wikipedia article as it existed didn't help much, partly because the external sites it links to provide evidence that seems a little dubious somehow. So, I was not inserting a joke, I was trying to stop a joke from affecting Wikipedia. If you read the entry, it was an entirely serious attempt to be helpful. I am (still) concerned that similar confusions will arise in the future, but if "the community" doesn't think this is a good contribution, okay. I wasn't aware that the allegation was only raised on one website. Drbobpgh (talk) 18:41, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Adjective[edit]

What would the adjective be - Moresnetian? Jackiespeel (talk) 19:24, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

1.2 Borders[edit]

I corrected what I took to be a typographical error: a parenthetical translation "Bofder" I assumed to be Border. I don't claim to be a linguist or a scholar of modern Euro history. I am 'being bold.' If I am incorrect, please revert. TYVM rags (talk) 19:01, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Citation needs raised re WWI[edit]

In the section First World War I have raised citation need against the alleged number of Neutral Moresnet citizens killed in WWI. If sources could be found for this statistic (a major figure for a territory of its size of population) then serious consideration could be given to introducing these into the wikipedia article on Casualties of World War I and giving acknowledgement to the territory's existence which was independent into 1915. A check with the more fulsome equivalent articles in Dutch and German wikipedias show that in the former the statement translates as '147 inhabitants....were killed as a result of acts of war' while the latter mentions no casualties. I wonder if there are Belgian sources? The Dutch wikipedia's article on the Church of Assumption in present-day Kelmis mentions without citation a war memorial within the church to soldiers of both Belgian and German armies from Kelmis who died serving in WWI. I have also raised a citation need for the annexation by Prussia - surely there must have been an official announcement from German sources for news consumption and for the 'benefit' of the inhabitants?Cloptonson (talk) 07:35, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]