Talk:House of Zähringen

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[Untitled][edit]

Text is partly out of date: there is today no "Grand Duchy" of Baden.
S.

Can someone correct the link for Conrad, Berchtold II's son who died in 1152? --Ricky81682 09:20, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)

Don't cancel[edit]

Don't cancel please th part concerning the Habsburg, because is TRUE!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.52.149.117 (talk) 10:00, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please use the pronoun "it" and tell us why it is supposed to be true. And with "why" I mean quote a serious genealogy, or use your time more productively. Trigaranus (talk) 20:40, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See please Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, Swabian Nobility. I don't tell lies, you should use your time more productively!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.56.148.87 (talk) 13:25, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to have your claims included in the article, you should:

stop changing the article just like that without anything beyond the assertion "is TRUE!!!!"
stop hopping from IP address to IP address - you're close to violating WP:3RR, and you're not endearing yourself to anyone if you're doing this both snottily and anonymously
produce a quotation or reference instead of just using more exclamation marks - that is, supply precise references before you barge in

Thanks, Trigaranus (talk) 14:53, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See FOUNDATION FOR MEDIEVAL GENEALOGY!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.4.208.53 (talk) 20:31, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The page I found there mentions the Habsburgs only as inheritors of Zähringen Estates. I cannot find any mentioning of a decendency of the Zähringer from Habsburg. The Zähringer were old nobility. The Habsburgs at that time were mere upstarts. --Wuselig (talk) 22:20, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

House of Zähringen and House of Baden[edit]

Can anybody tell mere where the (mis-)conception in the Encyclopedia Britannica comes from that the House of Baden should be called House of Zähringen. In German literature I cannot find anything about this. There, as the article here also notes, the House of Zähringen became extinct in 1218 and a separate and unique line of Baden existed parallel and further into history until the present time. So even the members of the family living today are refered to and more important refer to themselves as House of Baden. --Wuselig (talk) 12:00, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Carl Schurz, in his memoirs of the Baden uprising in 1849 (Lebenserinnerungen bis zum Jahre 1852, Berlin: G. Reimer, 1906, p. 218) refers to the family as follows: “Es war eine allegorische Darstellung, in welcher wahrscheinlich irgend ein Zähringer, ein Vorfahr der badischen Fürstenfamilie, als Jupiter, oder Mars, oder Apollo figurierte.”^[1] Schurz is in their Baden home looking up at a ceiling painting. So they were referred to in 1849 by the name Zähringen. The Britannica article is simply entitled Zähringen (refer to the link I just installed). Nothing about a house. Would they refer to themselves as the Zähringen family as well as the House of Baden? In any case, the article is mostly about the old family, not the Baden line. Bob Burkhardt (talk) 11:25, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That the "Zährigen" are ancestors to the Baden-family is undisputed. The question is, did, or does the present House of Baden assume the Name "House of Zähringen". I could not find anything to this regard in German literature. The only source I have this far is the Britannica, which even in its 15th edition in Volume 20 in its Macropedia article about Germany on page 132 talks about the margravical branch of the Zähringen family. But outside from this reference I have found no claim, that they ever refered to themselves other than House of Baden. And even in today's literature about nobility in Southwestern Germany there is only talk about the House of Baden.

Therefore, as you noted, the article is only about the old line of Zähringen, but the info box is about the House of Baden.

There was however a Zähringen-revival in the early 19th century. When those parts of the former Zähringen territories, that because of the extinction of the Zähringen family and the division into different lines had passed into Austrian possession and these Austrian possessions by the grace of Napoleon had now been passed to the Markgraves of Baden. If you like, it was occupation propaganda "hey, this no occupation, after having been divided for 500 years, we are finally reunited" That kind of propaganda was even used by the annected themselves. The town of Freiburg for instance erected a Zähringen fountain to remind the Baden-family of its ties to Freiburg. They where affraid to loose their university (founded by the Austrians) to Heidelberg (founded by the Counts Palatinate), which had been occupied by the Badens slightly earlier. --Wuselig (talk) 09:38, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In the Almanach de Gotha the house name of the reigning family of Baden is the House of Zähringen. - dwc lr (talk) 13:37, 7 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It would be nice, if we could reflect in the article, when the House of Baden did assume that old title again. As far as I can see it wasn't in the Middle Ages (at least the Zähringens are missing from all the armorials I have come across so far, wheras the von Badens are prominently present), and it wasn't until the End of the Early Modern Period, when Karl Friedrich von Baden (1728-1811) united the two lines of the Markgrafen von Baden again and when the country and its rulers where elevated to Grand Dutchy under Napoleon that the Zähringen tradition was revifed again. Unfortunetly I haven't found quotable literature yet to reflect this politically motivated CV-cosmetic. But it should be included in the article, when the von Badens did assume the old name of Zähringen again.--Wuselig (talk) 14:41, 7 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've tried to squeeze it all together a bit more, hopefully clarifying the family ties between the House of Baden and the Zähringen. As you probably have found out if you are interested, they are both descended in the male line from Berthold II, Duke of Carinthia (who has that "II" in the English WP for reasons unavailable to me because I don't have my LexMa on me). So strictly speaking, both are branches of the same house, the Zähringer actually being a cadet branch of the other house (the title "von Zähringen" only appeared in 1100, after the two houses had split). For all I know, the present holder of the title raised it from the dead for personal aesthetic reasons (there is a link here in German, which you should best view via your browser cache. Trigaranus (talk) 15:39, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Notes[edit]

^ In the English translation the same sentence is: “It was an allegorical group, in which probably some ancestor of the grand ducal family of Baden was portrayed in the shape of Jupiter, or Mars, or Apollo.” The family name is left out.

Immemorial?[edit]

Sorry if I made a mistake. I was unaware they are actually extinct. From immemorial nobility I came to check their origins and they appeared to qualify, so I added them to the new category. As far as that article those tags are all new, put there by a very well meaning but slightly over zealous editor. It is also under construction. But if the House of Zähringen are actually extinct then they do not really belong in the category. I am of Irish origin, with a hint of Norse, and unfamiliar with the continental nobility. DinDraithou (talk) 14:12, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:House of Zähringen/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

The text is taken from 1911 Britannica and gives acceptable coverage. Certainly it would benefit from expansion from another source. It has supporting material, and is well structured. I guess the Baden line is treated elsewhere? Perhaps the article should be updated with a treatment of the Baden line? Bob Burkhardt (talk) 11:33, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 11:33, 3 April 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 18:18, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

[1] In the English translation the same sentence is: “It was an allegorical group, in which probably some ancestor of the grand ducal family of Baden was portrayed in the shape of Jupiter, or Mars, or Apollo.” The family name is left out.

[1]