Talk:Big Bertha (howitzer)

Name

It is by no means certain that the gun was named for Krupp's wife. The sites quoted as verification are IMO not sufficient proof. See also the German Wikipedia article on this. Ondundozonananandana 13:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

According to Borse (2004) p. 168, in the January 1910 correspondence of Max Bauer to his wife, he called the Gamma-Gerät "my fat cannon" (probably dicke in original). So it appears to have been a common theme in the naming of these guns. Ley (1943), p. 17 has detailed foot note on the naming of the M gun, which I'll quote here in its entirety:

Only the "M" howitzer bore this nickname, the Gamma was always referred to as Eisenbahn 42 (railroad 42). Other nicknames for the "M" (and only for the "M") were Tante aus Essen (aunt from Essen, the seat of the Krupp Works), Dickes Luder (Fat Wench) and Dicker Brummer. It is difficult to translate the latter term properly, the verb brummen means a noisy whir or hum in the bass register, Brummer is a colloquial name for the Hummel (bumblebee). The term dicker Brummer was also applied to the shells of the "M" howitzers, which, however, were usually called Eiserne Portion (iron Portion) strictly distinguished from the Kohlenkasten (coal box) which always meant a heavy flat trajectory (naval) shell.

That the Dicke Bertha was named after Frau Bertha von Krupp is nonsense. It could be guessed that it meant about the same as "Fat Wench," Bertha being proverbially the name of a heavy-bone and fat maid or cook, the traditional girl friend of the German soldier. I have found German cartoons hinting at this, but I believe that the term actually originated by way of a historical reference, similar to that expressed in the nickname de:Kartaune. The Germans are convinced that the monk Berthold der Schwarze (black Berthold, meaning really Berthold the Alchemist) invented the guns. Consequently a gunner was a man "whose tuition with Master Berthold had been paid for by the king." Cannon were sometimes referred to as Master Berthold's daughters (used in a semi-humorous fashion), Big Bertha would then simply be Master Berthold's biggest daughter ... a derivation which is much more German than any other.

It's strange that Ley misses Fleissige Bertha from the list of names, which was very common at the time but apparently faded quickly from usage after the war, if a Google Books search is a good sample. A 1970 French paper from Revue internationale d'histoire militaire p. 849 has a different theory

Par corruption, le nom « Gross Bertha » allait devenir « Grosse Bertha » ou « Dikke Bertha » bien que les servants de la pièce l'aient baptisée : « Fleissige Bertha » ou « Bertha l'assidue », en raison de son empressement à satisfaire aux ordres donnés.

Have mörser, will travel (talk) 23:03, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

1925!

"Designed in 1925 and produced by the Krupp factories in Essen, Germany, in 1914" surely some mistake?

also range. the body of the text says 40km, the info box 12.5km--Mongreilf (talk) 10:21, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I thought it was obvious that the Nazis had traveled back in time. 72.92.226.25 (talk) 17:54, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Louis Gathmann's influence

It was stated in the article that newspapers claimed that Louis Gathmann's high explosive system influenced the Big Bertha design. I have re-worded this, because unless some evidence is cited to show otherwise, this makes it seem as if the newspapers were correct (which I do not believe them to have been). (McTodd (talk) 21:24, 13 April 2008 (UTC))

My history text says the Germans bombarded Paris with it from 75 miles away. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.25.44.196 (talk) 17:43, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Barrel length in introduction

"...barrel was 12 calibres in length.) I believe 'caliber' is an expression of measurement, not a UNIT of measurement. Do you mean "meters in length" ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.238.248 (talk) 21:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

The 'calibre' (singular) of a gun is the internal diameter of the barrel.

However, 'calibres' (plural) IS used as a measurement of the length of a gun barrel. In the case of the Dicke Bertha, the barrel was 12 x 42cm in length. --McTodd (talk) 16:30, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

B class?

This article lacks a couple of citations to bring it to B class standard. If anyone can add them, it should meet B1. Monstrelet (talk) 12:57, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

German Heavy Mortars

This is a poor source even by popmilhist standards. It manages to contradict itself in the space of two pages. On p. 23 it says 5 Gammas were built in total; on p. 24 it says 20 Gammas were active in 1916. That they've included the wooden model picture on the M (with the Nazi officer) without clarifying that it was a wooden model (but without commenting on the Nazi guy either) is not surprising. A very sloppy book in more than one way. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 03:34, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Howitzer or Mortar?

After having read entries on the Skoda 305 mm Model 1911 and Big Bertha, I was struck by the fact that they are both labelled Mörser in German. This means mortar, not howitzer (that would be Haubitze). Any particular reason to relabel them as howitzers in English? I have also raised this question in the general howitzer section.

Mojowiha (talk) 18:17, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

The 'Dicke Bertha' is a mortar no howitzer. A howitzer can fire a in high and low angle. A mortar is not designed to fire on low angle, like the described 42-mm Gamma-Gerät and M-Gerät. The 'M' stands for 'Minenwerfer' which is a strict synonym for 'Mörser' = mortar. The description mortar is used correctly in chapter 'Design history'. The munition in the picture is described correctly as 'German 42-cm mortar shell'. For the categorie of 'German artillery ind WW I' the categorie 'Mortars' is used. The title and article has to be edited. Antiextremist (talk) 12:08, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what they're called in German because words mean different things in other languages. For example, the German term for most types of infantry mortar is granatwerfer (grenade launcher) but we don't call them grenade launchers in English because it doesn't match the English use of the word "grenade." Herr Gruber (talk) 10:41, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Firing procedure

The article states that the gun was fired electrically from 300 yards away and that even then the gun crew had to stuff cotton wads into their ears. This information is based on a podcast and is probably nonsense. Master Gunner Ian V. Hogg in his book "The Guns 1914-18" (The Pan/Ballantine History of the First World War, Book No. 5, 1971, ISBN 0-330-23838-8), states the following (p. 41):

"Another piece of folklore surrounding these weapons is that when they were about to fire everybody in the area lay flat on the ground and the firing was done electrically from a pit 200 yards away. This tale was circulated in order to overawe the layman with an image of the immense power of the gun, but as any practicing gunner will tell you [and Hogg certainly was one] the bigger the gun, the less the noise. The 42cm was fired by a soldier standing on the platform, pulling a four-foot lanyard to snap a firing pin against a percussion cap in the cartridge case."

I can state from my own experience that when firing a large gun, the best place to be is immediately behind the gun. The further you are to the side or even the back, the harder the concussion will strike you -- even a few feet to the side make a big difference.--Death Bredon (talk) 11:12, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Dan Carlin citations

Does anyone have an actual source for the 300 yards + cotton in the everything firing claim? — Preceding unsigned comment added by FinalPotato (talk • contribs) 16:48, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

I've removed the 300 yard statement outright. Carlin is not a reliable source for a detail like this and there is a comment above that indicates that this claim is bogus.

Anyone who wants to reinsert it needs to find a better reference than Dan Carlin's podcast.

Peter ^Isotalo 17:39, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Big Bertha (howitzer)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sturmvogel 66 (talk · contribs) 15:40, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

I'll get to this shortly.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:40, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

• No DABs, external links good.
• File:Dicke Bertha.Big Bertha.jpg needs better sourcing and licensing.

• All I could learn about it is that the source of the image is apparently Marc Romanych. I've changed the PD tag to PD-1923. –Vami

• Without being able to determine publication data, it's impossible to establish whether or not it's in copyright. Your choices are to either figure out where and when it was published or to delete it. US copyright for anonymous unpublished photos is 120 years for date of creation which would put us at 2034 or so.

•  Removed –Vami

• File:Panzerfort Loncin.jpg needs a PD-1923 tag and one for German/EU copyright

• I think I've properly tagged this. Can you make sure? –Vami

• Good to go.

• File:II Kauno fortas.The second fort of Kaunas.jpg needs better sourcing and licensing

• Replaced with a picture of the same fort (same area as far as I can tell) taken in 2011. –Vami

• Link calibre (diameter), counter-battery, siege (in the artillery sense),

•  Added –Vami

• I cleaned up the sentence covering the calibre size of the barrel.

• when spelling out measurements that apply to nouns, you need to add "|adj=on" to the template code so that it adds a hyphen. Forex 15-inch shell. I did one of them in the lede for you already.

•  Added –Vami

• You also need to add hyphens for compound adjectives like smaller-calibre gun, etc. The first adjective is modifying the second one so it needs a hyphen between them.

•  Done Let me know if I missed any, as with the above bullet. –Vami

• You've made the common mistake of forgetting that you don't need to hyphenate simple adjectives like 12 calibre. Only if those two words modify a noun like gun would they be rendered 12-calibre gun. I think that there are 3 or 4 of these mistakes that you've added. If you have questions about any of them, feel free to ask for clarification.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 04:26, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

• desired to break through Franco-Belgian fortifications desired "the ability" to...

•  Done –Vami

• the diameter of the German Army's most powerful gun, 21 centimetres (8.3 in),[4] had become the standard thickness for fortress concrete. Clarify why this was a problem.

•  Done –Vami

• You're being tripped up by German artillery terminology. Mörser is used for heavy howitzers while mortars are granatwerfers.

• Oh. Romanych & Rupp made no note of the difference; they translate Küstenmörser as "Coastal mortar". –Vami

• Idiots. That said there were genuine coast defense mortars in service around this time, though I don't think that the Germans had any.

• Hold that thought. I just remembered that German siege guns were mis-designated to disguise their purpose as siege guns. I have added this into the text. –Vami

• with revised shells improved shells

• Done. –Vami

• coastal mortars brought from Japan These were 28 cm howitzer L/10 weapons

• Corrected. –Vami

• instructed the APK to study the efficacy of the Beta-Gerät to "improve upon the performance" of ...

• Done. –Vami

• The results recommended The APK recommended

• Done. –Vami

• Change the conversions from meters to feet to output in feet and inches "|ftin|". I've done a few for you already.

•  Done –Vami

• Change the range conversion outputs from feet to yards. I've done a couple for you already.

• Done. –Vami

• new cart weighing new "carriage"

•  Done –Vami

• Explain what the L/30 terminology means

•  Added –Vami

• That's fine, but you need to explain what L/12 means. And that should be done as a note. I think that most of the WWI-era German battleship articles have one that you can copy.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:26, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

•  Done –Vami

• Down to the variants table. More later.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:34, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

•  Done –Vami

• could outrange French and Belgian forts Do you mean could outrange "the guns" of the"... ?

•  Done –Vami

• inoperable by internal explosion I think that you mean premature detonation of their shells.

•  Done –Vami

• Link ground pressure, primer

•  Added –Vami

• Clarify the point that the spade had to be lifted up for the gun to traverse past its 4° limit and then dug in again to fire.

•  Done –Vami

• To clarify the primer ignites the propellant in the cartridge case, which propels the shell downrange.

•  Done –Vami

• Don't bold the battery numbers in the first para of the Service history section.

•  Done –Vami

• Sorry, gotta run. More later.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 04:26, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
• Link battery

•  Done –Vami

• Heavy artillery began their attack on 8 August but on 12 August,[18] KMK Battery 3 was the first siege battery sent into battle to bombard the Fort de Pontisse, which surrendered after two days. Awkward, should probably split into two sentences or use a semi-colon to connect them.

•  Done –Vami

• "munitions depot", you mean an "ammunition magazine"

•  Fixed, with added link. –Vami

• magazine explosion caused by the battery's 50th round fired against it. Don't need the number of the shell that caused the explosion

•  Removed –Vami

• The Skoda guns were howitzers, not mortars

•  Fixed –Vami

• opened by the 21cm guns What are these? And who do they belong to?

•  Fixed –Vami

• Verdun began in 1916, not 1915.

•  Fixed –Vami

• Battery 7's M-Gerät guns were destroyed by internal explosion Change to premature detonation in all remaining places

•  Done –Vami

• Nothing going on in 1915 for the siege guns?

• Not on the Western Front. –Vami

• losses of their big guns were replaced with smaller–calibre artillery big guns "had them replaced by smaller-calibre weapons"

•  Done –Vami

• forts X, Xa, and XI from a counterattack "against" a counterattack?

•  Fixed –Vami

• fortresses wholesale on the Great Retreat "during" the Great Retreat

•  Fixed –Vami

• Please use a non-breaking space " " between gun size and measurement, like 42 cm throughout.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:13, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

•  Done –Vami

• Move the link for magazine to the first use, and fix the typo and we'll be done here.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 21:54, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

•  Done. Oops. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 22:23, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

How many were used at Liège ?

We have varying numbers in circulation. Please assist at Talk:Battle of Liège#Siege_artillery numbers? Andy Dingley (talk) 12:15, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

All Big Berthas then in service were at Liege. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 22:19, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Weight vs. Gamma-Gerät

The article states, "The M-Gerät was two-thirds the weight of the Gamma-Gerät, but had 30% less range...". In fact, as the M-Gerät weighed 42.6 tons and the Gamma-Gerät 150 tons, the M-Gerät weighed less than one third of the weight of the Gamma-Gerät -- 28.4%, to be exact, or closer to one quarter than one third.--Death Bredon (talk) 18:09, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

State Ballistics

815m/s (2670ft/s) sounds *very* high - about twice what is quoted elsewhere both for Big Berthas and the Gammas - more typical of high-velocity (L/45-L/50) naval guns. 81.111.27.220 (talk) 07:04, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

December 4, 2023:

I changed muzzle velocity to 400 m/s - source is simple English Wikipedia page about Big Bertha, as well as few other pages online, but I didn't cite them as they all vary, usually between 1300 ft/s and 400 m/s (~1312 ft/s). But I think that this is more than good enough, as speed of 12-14 calibers long barrels was far from 815 m/s. MalaMrvica (talk) 12:18, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

@MalaMrvica: Did you check against the sources I cited in the article before making this change? –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 03:03, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

I am not sure what sources you refer to, but if you ask if I read all the books mentioned there, no, I didn't. However, I read some other books. Also, some of the sites that I didn't want to mention in the first place are:

https://www.ww2-weapons.com/big-bertha/

http://www.worldwar1.com/heritage/bbertha.htm

https://thelonsdalebattalion.miraheze.org/wiki/Big_Bertha

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Big_Bertha_(howitzer)

etc.

So, please check if you want.

Also, depending on the versions, Big Bertha had 12-14 cal long barrel. SMS Derfflinger was, for example, armed with 50 cal 305 mm cannons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30.5_cm_SK_L/50_gun) that fired armor piercing shells at 855 m/s.

In what universe could 12-14 cal long barrel achieve 815 m/s muzzle velocity? Firing what? Snowflakes?

So, after checking all the resources available, in reasonable amount of time, I concluded that muzzle velocity of Big Bertha was 400 m/s. And no, I didn't mention what shell was fired with what kind of charge. MalaMrvica (talk) 15:19, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Recent edits

Tidied a few typos, auto-edded, shortened convert templates etc. Keith-264 (talk) 20:54, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 21:44, 27 October 2022 (UTC)