Talk:Multiphonic

Physics[edit]

It's a start. Would particularly appreciate it if someone more well-versed in physics could expand this, as well as someone who can quote more literature that uses them. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 21:42, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Few things[edit]

This is a fascinating article. A few things:

Von Weber used multiphonics? I'm a music major and that just blew my mind. We need examples of pieces because really, being a brass player, I find that astounding, if not unbelievable. Maybe we could get some public domain music up here; I'd be happy to transcribe it.
An audio file is worth a thousand words. Anyone with a decent mic know how to do this? Because I don't.
Definition of "horn chord".

That's my 2 cents. Great job so far. Logank 04:02, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kind of silly article[edit]

This is not very good, and it really should be reworked. The part with musicians who do multiphonics is really silly because every master class in contemporary techniques will go through them, and pieces like Berios Sequenzas are something every graduate will play. It's such a mainstream thing these days that every young composer ask for them regularly in the contemporary music field. Books on contemporary techniques should also be referred to like Peter Veale's book on oboe technique and Carin Levin's book on flute. Also the book "New Sounds for Woodwind" (1967) by B. Bartolozzi should be referred to, this was the one that really started the trend.

--83.248.239.86 (talk) 20:21, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Entirely true. The list of composers who use multiphonics is "everyone who has written for woodwind since 1970" at the very least. 71.23.141.223 (talk) 05:23, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Vocal multiphonics[edit]

I'm not sure how thoroughly this has been "classified" etc (certainly no Bartolozzi book here), but while throat singing is certainly the most widely known vocal multiphonic practice, numerous numerous numerous multiphonic vocal sounds are possible that have nothing to do with either of the two throat singing traditions. 71.23.141.223 (talk) 05:27, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Trombone throat singing recording[edit]

The recording of trombone throat singing is awful, and should probably be replaced with a better recording.BassHero55 ^{(Message me)} 01:56, 16 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What would make it better? Sound quality, performance technique, context? Hyacinth (talk) 06:30, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Please reinstate my edits[edit]

The information I painstakingly added is pertinent to "multiphonic" and not "polyphony". Andrew.levine (talk) 14:17, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Electronic multiphonics[edit]

User:Andrew.levine I just rolled back your recent additions to the article discussing electronic multiphonics. I do not think this topic fits well with the article. Electronic multiphonics are much more relevant to Polyphony than this article. Multiphonics in this article refers to using extended techniques to achieve multiple pitches on an otherwise monophonic instrument. The electronic 'multiphonics' discussed in your proposed section are achieved by effectively changing the instrument to make it polyphonic. Creating multiple pitches with additive synthesis, as many of the added references seem to be discussing, is not the same as multiphonics. Under the proposed definition, it seems to me that overdrive pedals would be considered multiphonic techniques, language that I've never heard used together. I think this material is much better suited to a page about modular synthesizers (if deemed sufficiently Notable for that).

Also, it seemed like most or all of the added sources were Primary sources, putting the article section in danger of Synthesis. If there are reliable secondary sources grouping multiphonic synth modules in with the acoustic methods discussed in the article, then the addition would be more warranted. Thanks. StereoFolic (talk) 14:18, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note also the guidelines about using vendor-provided product descriptions - we can consider them reliable for basic product specs, but they are not sufficient to establish notability or anything beyond the basic facts. StereoFolic (talk) 14:23, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The "vendor-provided product descriptions" are not as relevant as the existence of several modules pertaining to electronically controlled multiphonics. Andrew.levine (talk) 16:48, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Per my comment below, only one of the 5 given product listings uses the word "multiphonic". To draw connections between the pages and infer a trend of modules that do multiphonic-like things, and use that to justify inclusion in this article, is WP:Synthesis. StereoFolic (talk) 20:38, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi StereoFolic, your statement "The electronic 'multiphonics' discussed in your proposed section are achieved by effectively changing the instrument to make it polyphonic." is incorrect, at least for some of the modules mentioned. They generate partials based on the selected fundamental that effect the overall waveform, similar to what a player of acoustic instruments can achieve. Andrew.levine (talk) 16:39, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding "Electronic multiphonics are much more relevant to Polyphony than this article." I disagree. Polyphony pertains to independant melodic lines whereas I am talking about _one_ melodic line of fundamentals where timbral changes are effected by the changing overtone structures. Andrew.levine (talk) 16:47, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Of the 5 sources added, only 1 included the word "multiphonic" (Generate 3), and all 5 were primary source product listings, which again are not reliable for such characterizations. To infer from the product descriptions that they are describing something that could be called "multiphonic" is WP:Original Research. I cannot find any reliable secondary sources which describe synthesizers as "multiphonic." In my view, this is a hard requirement for inclusion in this article. The internet is replete with discussions of acoustic multiphonics, but for synthesizers the word appears very rarely used. If any electronic module that modifies the overtone structure of a signal is considered multiphonic, then just about every pedal, filter, and module would be included. At any rate, reliable WP:Secondary sources are needed to establish whether such systems are described as "multiphonic" in mainstream literature. StereoFolic (talk) 20:36, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

While there might be a lack of source material currently helping to establish the case, labeling my addition ad polyphony is not correct. We could at least insert a passage suggesting the link to be something pertinent for investigation. Andrew.levine (talk) 04:54, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, I'll concede 'polyphony' is not the right term for such modules. The fact remains that reliable secondary sources do not appear to apply the term here, so again, it's OR to extrapolate otherwise, even in passing reference. If, down the line, mainstream literature comes to apply the term to such instruments we can add it then. There is no deadline. StereoFolic (talk) 16:07, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the clarification in line with the Wikipedia definition of… "Polyphony (/pəˈlɪfəni/ puh-LIH-fuh-nee) is a type of musical texture consisting of two or more simultaneous lines of independent melody, as opposed to a musical texture with just one voice, monophony, or a texture with one dominant melodic voice accompanied by chords, homophony." Andrew.levine (talk) 06:55, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Again looking at the original definition I am hard pressed to label a pedal an instrument! Andrew.levine (talk) 05:12, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

...or a filter (standalone). A filter connected to an instrument is something else though, just as shaping the cavern of the human mouth can make it act as a formant filter. Andrew.levine (talk) 05:42, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

3O Response: If the characterization is disputed, and reliable and independent sources can't be found which explicitly confirm it, then such a characterization should be omitted until and unless such sources are found. The fact that descriptions of the device make it appear to function a certain way is generally not sufficient; it must actually explicitly be confirmed. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 18:54, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Seraphimblade, I do not understand what you mean by "The fact that descriptions of the device make it appear to function a certain way is generally not sufficient; it must actually explicitly be confirmed."

Say...

A ladder is a device with a series of rungs connected to two poles at an angle of 90° that–among other possible uses–enables a biped to climb higher than what can be achieved without it.

So that is not sufficient but must be confirmed? Andrew.levine (talk) 19:39, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, but you've already erred a bit there, and that's why we've got that requirement for sources. On a stepladder with an opposite brace that sits up at an angle, the steps are generally designed to be at 90 degrees to the ground when the ladder is braced, but are not at right angles to the poles. Also, some ladders are permanently attached to walls, playground equipment, or the like, and may not use poles at all. So, even there, you see how doing it off the top of your head can be tricky and miss things. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 21:34, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1 I could have quoted this from a source. Doesn't make it more reliable.
2 I was primarily concerned with the function of said device. OK, should have specified that, but didn't want to invest even more time 😅

What I meant to say is that I am unclear about the "confirmation" part. If I apply a definition to include an aspect previously not considered in the original listing, like including electronic means of creating multiphonics, it feels correct to me.

But it appears I have to first find–or create–a text outside of Wikipedia so I can quote it within 🤔 Andrew.levine (talk) 06:16, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you find reliable secondary sources applying this term in this way, of course we can reconsider including it in this article. However, it is strongly discouraged to "create" sources which support your perspective, and then use it, as this would represent a Conflict of interest.

Regarding all this discussion around definitions, I think this essay on dictionaries in Wikipedia may offer helpful perspective. Definitions are rarely precise and all-encompassing, and act more as a starting point for understanding a subject than a rigorous truth to be extrapolated from in every way that may be implied. StereoFolic (talk) 19:44, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Original definition of multiphonic[edit]

"A multiphonic is an extended technique on a monophonic musical instrument (one that generally produces only one note at a time) in which several notes are produced at once."

This definitely includes the Theremin! Monophonic by design, but you can use the volume control to shape the timbre in a way comparable to modulating wind pressure on a reed instrument. Andrew.levine (talk) 05:11, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The statement "several new notes that are the sums/differences of the frequencies of the sung note and the played note are produced" pertains also to additive & subtractive synthesis... Andrew.levine (talk) 05:30, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

An example of using add-ons to generate multiphonics: "Other multiphonic extended techniques used are prepared piano, prepared guitar and 3rd bridge." Looks like filtering / FX to me. Andrew.levine (talk) 05:31, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I can't help but feel that the deletion is the result of a bias towards purely acoustically generated multiphonics. Andrew.levine (talk) 05:39, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, taking the description of multiphonics and applying it to other things which are not described as such in the literature is WP:OR. And again, please WP:Assume good faith. Unless reliable, secondary sources apply the term to such use-cases, we can't include it. It is simply not our place to extrapolate like this. StereoFolic (talk) 16:03, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bassoon multiphonics - Theremin multiphonics… what gives?[edit]

Looking at this definition… "Multiphonics defy the bassoon’s nature as a monophonic instrument by creating chords or clusters of notes. They are composed of a fundamental note plus certain harmonics that are manipulated from the instrument by either fingering patterns or air stream." https://scholarworks.iu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/2022/29042/Erb%2C%20Sara%20%28DM%20Bassoon%29.pdf

…the exact same pertains to my use of multiphonics on Theremin and modular synthesizer! I create "chords or clusters of notes […] composed of a fundamental note plus certain harmonics" by manipulating components of my instrument, consisting of the Theremin as controller and modular as sound producing parts.

Where is the problem? Only because so far the term "multiphonics" has rarely been used in relation to electronic instruments it is obvious the definition can be applied directly. Andrew.levine (talk) 06:36, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lack of clarity in your argumentation[edit]

I feel that you mix correct observations with incorrect assumptions as well as Wikipedia guidelines, and when you try to refute my arguments you just end up stating the latter(est).

"To infer from the product descriptions that they are describing something that could be called "multiphonic" is WP:Original Research."

I am just applying the definition! "A multiphonic is an extended technique on a monophonic musical instrument (one that generally produces only one note at a time) in which several notes are produced at once."

- The Theremin is a monophonic instrument - Using control voltages to transmit pitch and amplitude data I feed a modular synthesizer - Creating varying overtones

"I cannot find any reliable secondary sources which describe synthesizers as "multiphonic."

This statement is correct. But it does not mean the above listed definition does not apply, because it does. I am not inferring anything, just reading closely.

"In my view, this is a hard requirement for inclusion in this article."

This is (I believe ;-) a subjective assessment. Again, if the above definition is correct and does not single out purely acoustic instruments–and not include prepared piano etc.–it can logically and _objectively_ be applied to electronic instruments.

"The internet is replete with discussions of acoustic multiphonics, but for synthesizers the word appears very rarely used."

Correct.

"If any electronic module that modifies the overtone structure of a signal is considered multiphonic, then just about every pedal, filter, and module would be included."

The definition lists an "instrument". I assume "musical instrument". Defined as…

"A musical instrument is a device created or adapted to make musical sounds"

While a standalone pedal, filter and module can not be called an instrument a combination e.g. of Theremin and synth is definitely a match. Andrew.levine (talk) 06:54, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, applying a definition to a use-case that secondary sources do not use is OR. If virtually nobody else is using this terminology, we must consider the possibility that expert consensus is that the term does not apply, for whatever reason. Since it seems be are stuck here I am going to request a third opinion. StereoFolic (talk) 14:27, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there, just wondering if there ever was a third opinion? Andrew.levine (talk) 13:18, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, yes, that was Seraphimblade's "3O Response" replies above. StereoFolic (talk) 15:13, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]