Talk:Virginia State Route 267

End of Toll

When the toll road was originally built, I thought that it was supposed to stop being a toll road by a certain date and that they changed (or permanently ended) that deadline when they decided to build the silver line. Does anyone know that deadline? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.100.96.146 (talk) 02:50, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Untitled

While I'd like to thank VTHawkeye for adding a lot of information to the Dulles Toll Road page, I think some of the information provided is inaccurate, or at least can be confusing. In the second paragraph, in discussing the history of the Dulles Toll and Access Roads, one can get the impression that they were built together at the same time. This is not the case. The Dulles Access Road, which was built by the MWAA solely to get people to and from the airport, opened with the airport in 1964. It only allowed travel to and from the airport. There were no exit ramps from the road going westbound -- just entrance ramps, and there were no entrance ramps going eastbound. It wasn't until the 1980s did the parallel road built by VDoT for the communities of Reston and Herndon open. This is the outer road that is the Dulles Toll Road, which would now allow drivers to enter and exit at intermediate points. So for 15-20 years the road was useless for commuter travel.

According to [1], the Toll Road opened in 1984. Dbenbenn 01:30, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The airport opened in 1962, not 64. [2] confirms that the first 13.5 miles of the Access Road opened at the same time; the last 2.5 connecting to I-66 weren't built until 1983. Dbenbenn 01:55, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the fixes -- after I made my additions, I did some more research, and just hadn't come back to fix my errors yet. VT hawkeye 05:46, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Three Dulles roads and VA 267

What do people think of merging this with Dulles Greenway and renaming it to Virginia State Highway 267, with the others redirecting? As it currently stands, VA 267 redirects here, but the Greenway is also 267, and so 267 should properly be a very short page saying that it consists of these two roads. That seems rather poor to me. An alternate solution might be keeping it as-is but adding a link to Dulles Greenway to the top of this page, saying it's also part of 267. --SPUI 02:22, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Is the access road also called 267? I don't know, but I don't think so. It was built by the FAA, not VDOT. Dbenbenn 03:03, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The access road is not, but the toll road is. Those are already in the same article, despite the article being named Dulles Toll Road. And it seems stupid to split those two, being hopelessly intermingled. Maybe Dulles highway corridor or something equally invented but descriptive?--SPUI 03:46, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Virginia State Highway 267 seems fine; certainly better than making up a term. And it fits with the highway names for other states. Dbenbenn 02:50, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It should be noted that the Greenway is also not technically 267, since it's a privately-owned road; the 267 numbering and signage from IAD to Leesburg is a courtesy designation only. But for the naming of a combined article, I think it's better than something contrived. VT hawkeye 05:46, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Eh, are you sure about that? Is there a law that says that a privately-owned road can't be numbered? Why should it be any different from another public agency or semi-public authority owning a road that's signed as a state road? --SPUI 07:41, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The third-to-last paragraph of [3] seems to indicate that only the toll road is technically VA 267. Dbenbenn 02:32, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

According to the 2003 Virginia Route Index ([4]) it describes 267 as running "From Routes 7/15 in Leesburg to Route I-66 north of Falls Church, including the parallel lanes along the Dulles International Airport Access Road." -- SterlingNorth 13:23, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Dulles Greenway is VA 267 because the exit numbering that is apparent on the Toll Road continues into the Greenway. --76.111.67.200 (talk) 18:37, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

VA267, much like many (most) route #s are assemblies of locally named roads. It is interesting, but not contradictory, that not all of the parallel roads of VA267 (from US66 to Leesburg) go to the same places or charge tolls. In my experience, Dulles Access, Dulles Toll, and Dulles Greenway, are rarely called Rt 267. I would like to see more detailed useful travel info about the various intersections & tolls.
. What is the toll and congestion pattern of the ramp lane from Spring Hill Rd (#10) to US495(S)?
Wikidity (talk) 22:24, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Potential Privatization of the Dulles Toll Road

I wonder if anybody reads the talk pages, but anyway, with today's news that Macquarie -- having just bought majority of the rights to the Greenway -- has entered with the consortium that wants to buy the Dulles Toll Road, should we start adding that breaking news to the VA 267 article? I know, I could do that myself, but I don't trust my writing abilities to start adding new sections or articles to Wikipedia. -- SterlingNorth 00:42, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Be bold. Just make sure you source everything. Simultaneous movement (talk) 19:20, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Pre-DTR legal backtracking stickers?

Can anyone provide a reference for this? The supplied link says nothing whatsoever about these stickers, so I've removed it and put in a citeneeded template. VT hawkeye_{talk to me} 01:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I added a link in which someone commented on memories of "orange Dulles Access Road stickers" which is what I remember from those days. Suldrew 20:42, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Access Road issue

The eastern terminus of VA 267 is not at I-66. Sure, that's where eastbound Dulles Airport Access Road ends, but not VA 267. The Access Road is not VA 267, but only the Toll Road is. That's the reason for the Access Road being signed only as 'TO I-495' out of Dulles International Airport and 'TO I-495 NORTH, Baltimore' from I-66. Also, many of the one-way roads that feed eastbound Access Road drivers to the Toll Road have signs that say 'TO EXIT XX', because the exit is not that of the Access Road, it is of the Toll Road. Also, westbound on the Access Road just before Exit 19, there are many signs that tell you to 'USE 267 WEST', such as signs for the Wolf Trap National Park for the Performing Arts and the Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center. So I suggest changing the east end of VA 267 to the 'Dulles Airport Access Road' because the Toll Road does merge into the Access Road east of Exit 19. 76.111.67.200 (talk) 18:32, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I understand what you're talking about. The airport doesn't matter because 267 goes West of there along the Greenway. But from I-66, there's one standalone sign that says "TO VA 267". However, BGSs (Big Green Signs) that say "TO 495 NORTH" are not always correct. We go by what the official documents say, and as far as the Commonwealth is concerned, the Virginia Route Index says that I-66 is the eastern terminus. The access road exits, with the exception of the VA 7 exit, are exits to VA 267. But to address the final point, the Route Index says so, so it stays. --MPD ^{T / C} 05:56, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Alright. 76.111.67.200 (talk) 03:22, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, MPD's cited source – Virginia DOT's "Designated Interstate and Primary Route Numbers, Named Highways, Named Bridges and Designated Virginia Byways" (the actual title), dated 1 July 2003, page 24 – is ambiguous on the subject. It says the following:

267 - STATE ROUTE: From Routes 7/15 in Leesburg to Route I-66 north of Falls Church, including the parallel lanes along the Dulles International Airport Access Road.

It's clear that the Dulles Greenway is part of 267 because that's the sole road on the stretch from Leesburg to Dulles Airport/Rt. 28. It's also clear that the Dulles Access Road from I-495 to I-66 is part of 267 for the same reason. But of the stretch between them, there are two roads, and the only one mentioned is "the parallel lanes along the Dulles International Airport Access Road", which is the exact description of the Dulles Toll Road, exclusive of the Dulles Access Road. It doesn't specifically say anything about the Access Road itself. (Using the word "including" before "the parallel lanes" implies "in addition to something else", but the "something else" could be "the Dulles Toll Road", or it could be "the Greenway and the Access Road to the Beltway".) Of course, it's arguable that the inclusion of the Access Road segment from I-66 implies the entire Access Road, but there are several simple ways that they don't use to make this clear without assuming an implication. Also, another cited source from the article – Virginia Highway Index's "VA 800 to 90005", retrieved 13 April 2009 – suggests that the Virginia Highway Patrol uses "VA-90004" to distinguish the Access Road from the Toll Road (VA-267) when ticketing access-road violators.

It seems to me that this situation is not decisively resolved yet. Considering how sloppy we area residents can be about the distinctions, and the complexity of the connections for visitors (some of whom will read this article for clarification), I think I'll see if I can dig up more references from the local transportation authorities. Meanwhile, I'm going to tweak some of the material to incorporate what I've found so far. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 17:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I'll buy that. I remember reading somewhere (probably here on Wikipedia) that the Access Road was a 90000-level route. The question over the termini of 267 is solved. Essentially, the only thing we need to figure out is the wording for the Access Road regarding the fact that it's not technically 267. Including it in this article makes life a lot easier though, as separating it would be unnecessary since it's pretty much the same road (and used to be 267, I believe). So yeah, anything you can find to bone up the VA 90004 fact is great. --MPD ^{T / C} 23:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

See the screenshots below taken from the interactive maps available at the Virginia Department of Transportation website http://www.virginiadot.org/travel/prOTIM.asp.

• 
  VA SR-267 at US I-66
• 
  VA SR-90004 and VA SR-267 at VA SR-123
• 
  VA SR-90004 and VA SR-267 at VA SR-28
• 
  VA SR-267 at US-15

It is clear from the VA DOT website maps that (from east to west):

• VA SR-267 begins at I-66 (in Fairfax County just north of the City of Falls Church) and ends at US-15 (in the City of Leesburg)
• VA SR-90004 begins as a split from VA SR-267 just east of VA SR-123 and ends at Dulles Airport

If you go to the VA DOT website and use the "Identity Feature" toolbar button, you can see that

• The section of VA SR-267 from I-66 to the VA SR-90004 split has the street name "Dulles Airport Access Road"
• The entirety of VA SR-90004 has the street name "Dulles Airport Access Road"
• The section of VA SR-267 from the VA SR-90004 split to VA SR-28 has the street name "Dulles Toll Road"
• The section of VA SR-267 from VA SR-28 to US-15 has the street name "Dulles Greenway"

So some work is needed on this article to reflect the above facts. hulmem (talk) 05:59, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

The "median strip" of the "toll road" ?

The last paragraph under Dulles Toll Road states:

On March 27, 2006, the Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority took over from Virginia the operation of the Dulles Toll Road, including the outstanding debt and the obligation to construct a rapid mass transit line in the median strip of the toll road.[7]

... but the MWAA reference cited makes no mention of a median strip of the toll road. And, quite correctly, it shouldn't; there is no median strip of the Toll Road. The road that has a median strip is the Access Road. The point of all of this is that if you're going to reference official documents, such as an MWAA press release, do so accurately. The whole distinction between what is 267, the Access Road, the Toll Road, and the Greenway is confusing enough without WP contributors, even those with good intentions, getting in here and mucking things up. Use your brains, kids. --abl (talk) 16:45, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Dulles Greenway, a 'success story' ?

The third paragraph under Dulles Greenway contains the sentence:

The road was completed and opened in 1995 and is often cited as a success story of public-private partnership.^{[citation needed]}

As a civil engineer, I have read a lot of articles on civil engineering projects in general, and the Greenway in particular, but I have never read any objective article on the Greenway citing it as any kind of success story. I found it interesting to read the words of Paul Burka, the senior executive editor of Texas Monthly magazine, who wrote about the Greenway in a piece about the use of pension funds to invest in toll roads, which is probably not a wise idea anywhere. In 2008, Burka wrote:

The Dulles Greenway toll road to Washington’s Dulles Airport defaulted on its bonds within a year of its opening in 1995. The private owner, Toll Road Investors Partnership II, have lost money every year since the road opened. When toll roads lose money, tolls go up–in this case, to $4.80 by 2012. That works out to an astronomical 35 cents per mile. There are similar stories in Orange County, California (where the state had to buy failing toll lanes), and along Florida’s west coast, and near Richmond, Virginia, where the 8.8-mile Pocohantas Parkway, financed with tax-free bonds, has suffered around a 50% shortfall in projected toll receipts; the state has had to maintain the road because the private owners don’t have the money.

So just exactly where are the citations of the Greenway being a 'success story?' --abl (talk) 17:35, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Good point. That line has been there as long as I can remember. I've never really thought about it. In my opinion, the "Success story" is a public-private partnership that got something done that ultimately benefited the population- a road that IMO was needed. There are frequently times when I'm SO glad it's open. Of course, nobody likes high tolls but faced with an extra half hour on the surface streets, it's a success story. Economically, it's clearly not a success ("yet", but who knows). So in the end, that part of the line should not be there because it's OR and ambiguous. --MPD ^{T / C} 19:16, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Routes 7 and 28 'more congested' ?

The sentence that states:

Alternate (free) routes include State Route 7 and State Route 28, both of which are generally more congested.^[10]

... references a Washington Post article that does state that Routes 7 and 28 are alternative routes but does not state that 7 and 28 are "generally more congested." They may be, but that's not what is stated by the Post. Therefore, this sentence needs to be revised since it offers someone's opinion about 7 and 28 being more congested, but the cited reference doesn't say that, and the OP did not offer any empirical evidence or data to support the claim that 7 and 28 are "generally more congested." Let's try to get this article to state the facts as objectively as possible, okay?

Besides, a point that's usually missed is that the congestion on Routes 7 and 28, when used together as an alternate to the Greenway, is caused in part by the Greenway itself and its higher cost (due to tolling) relative to the Routes 7-28 alternative. At $4.00 per one-way toll, if driven twice a day, five days per week, for 50 weeks per year, the non-discounted Greenway tolls add up to $2,000 per year. Stated another way, the Routes 7-28 alternative between Dulles Airport and Leesburg offers drivers a $2,000 annual savings per driver as compared to using the Greenway. Therefore, it should surprise no one that Routes 7 and 28 are congested. Anyone who doesn't have an extra $2,000 to spend on Greenway tolls has little choice but to take Routes 7 and 28.--abl (talk) 14:45, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

The article does state "Since the road opened in 1995 as a luxury alternative to routes 7 and 28, Loudoun's population has nearly tripled, making the stop-and-go traffic on the free roads unbearable for many and making the Greenway no longer a mere luxury, but a fact of life.". I read unbearable "Stop-and-go" traffic as congestion. You also suggest that the statement is accurate, because if there is an increase in population along those routes resulting in stop-and-go traffic (according to the post), and the tolls on the Greenway are so high that people will avoid paying them, then traffic on the alternate (free) routes will generally be more congested.

But how could we improve that sentence? Could we specify that 7 and 28 are "generally more congested" during rush hour, but not all the time (which could be how it's read)? There's no cause-and-effect listed, so we'd need a source that the high tolls will cause more congestion on 7 and 28. Would it also be worth mentioning that within a year there will be no lights on 28 between the Greenway and Route 7, and within a few more years there will be maybe five or six lights on Route 7 between 28 and the Greenway (three between Battlefield and 28- Belmont Ridge, Lexington (maybe), and Geo Washington)? Those efforts are geared toward reducing congestion on the alternate routes. What do you think because I'm open to ideas. I feel it is worth mentioning that Routes 28 and 7 are more congested during rush hour and et cetera. --MPD ^{T / C} 18:24, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I think we're in agreement that Routes 7 and 28 are congested, certainly during rush hours in the peak direction, and approaching congested levels (at some quantifiable level) at other times. I suggest that we try to get our hands on some reports (if there are any available) that contain some real traffic-count data for Routes 7, 28, the Greenway, etc. Perhaps VDOT has something we can use and analyze; maybe Loudoun County is another source. The Washington Post article that was cited talks about congestion in somewhat-vague terms and mentions the free roads being "unbearable," which is, of course, the author's opinion... and those are two reasons to opt for real data if we can find them.

Your suggestion about mentioning the Route 28 Corridor Improvements is a good one, but it would need to be a separate article if it isn't logically tied to this one. (The stated objective of the Route 28 project is to seek "transportation improvements," not alleviating congestion caused by spillover traffic from the Greenway to Routes 7 and 28 or price inequities between the Greenway and Routes 7 and 28.) And without comparative traffic data, it will be difficult to tie the two together. --abl (talk) 14:55, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I know nothing of Virginia or the Greenway, or if it's less congested than the freeways, but: Opportunity Cost. It seems that there shouldn't be any confusion over why some people may be willing to spend money for a shorter commute. Jordalus (talk) 06:58, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Separation of Toll Road and Access Road

This article should have a photo that shows the separation of the Dulles Toll Road from the Dulles Airport Access Road. Preferably this would be from an overpass over the highway, showing both roadways in either direction, or an aerial photo showing the same. File:Route267vausawiehle.jpeg, which is currently used in the article, shows only the westbound side of the Toll Road; the westbound side of the Access Road is cropped off (to the left of the jersey wall in the lower corner of the photo). Can someone who lives in the Northern Virginia area and/or frequently drives on VA-267 please take such a photo and add it to the article? Thanks. Tckma (talk) 18:33, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

External links modified

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reference from Atlantia_(company) page

Hi, I arrived on this page through an link on the WP page Atlantia_(company), it mentions 'Another subsidiary of Atlantia, Autostrade of Virginia, is a member of the consortium that operates the Dulles Greenway' but on this page, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_State_Route_267#Dulles_Greenway 'Toll Road Investors Partnership II (TRIP II)' consisting of the Bryant/Crane Family LLC, the Franklin L. Haney Co.,[20] and Kellogg Brown & Root (KB&R)is mentioned as the owner, which in 2005 was acquired by Australian firm Macquarie Infrastructure Group. So, no mention of the Autostrade of Virginia subsidiary of Atlantia. To me, newbie, sharp eye, no encyclopedian, this seems an inconsistency. And since I'm not from Virginia, not even US of A, or Italy, I don't know what to do about it. Anybody ideas? Doggy daddy (talk) 14:27, 27 February 2018 (UTC)