Talk:Richard I of England

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Requested move 24 February 2024[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. Three days in and unanimous opposition, it is clear that this RM will fail. (non-admin closure) UmbrellaTheLeef (talk) 22:23, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Richard I of England → Richard the Lionheart – Per WP:SOVEREIGN and WP:COMMONNAME. "Use the most common, unambiguous name: Carl XVI Gustaf, Elizabeth II, Alfonso XII, Louis XIV, William the Conqueror, John Balliol, Mary, Queen of Scots, Eric of Pomerania, Charlemagne. This is in line with WP:COMMONNAME." Richard the Lionheart is clearly the most commonly used name for this monarch. UmbrellaTheLeef (talk) 17:45, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose strongly 1) Because his regnal number places him accurately and unambiguously in the chronology of English monarchs. 2) The name 'Coeur de Lion' has more or less equal usage as 'Lionheart', even in English language sources. Urselius (talk) 19:42, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. There was an unsuccessful requested move back in 2008 and we should not keep chopping and changing. Also, quick google search suggests that Richard I is more common. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:34, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment - Google gives his name as "Richard the Lionheart", not "Richard I". UmbrellaTheLeef (talk) 21:53, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Google is not RS. Srnec (talk) 22:01, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment - I know that, but OP said that a "quick google search" "suggests that Richard I is more common" I was pointing out that wasn't true. UmbrellaTheLeef (talk) 22:15, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "Richard I" gets over 6,100,000 hits on google compared with 810,000 for "Richard the Lionheart", so it is more common. Dudley Miles (talk) 23:53, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The problem with any nickname in this case is that there isn't a definitive one. He used to be "the Lion-hearted" before he was "(the) Lionheart" and some prefer the French Coeur de Lion (which was once the norm). See this ngram. "Richard I" is steady, but the preferred form of the nickname varies. The prominence of "the Lionheart" is a comparatively recent phenomenon. Srnec (talk) 22:01, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for the same reason we don't use Henry Curtmantle, John Lackland, etc. Redirects work perfectly fine. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:42, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment - I don't support those moves because those aren't their common names. No one calls them "Henry Curtmantle" or "John Lackland" UmbrellaTheLeef (talk) 07:47, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - As it would make the bio title inconsistent with Richard II of England & Richard III of England. -- GoodDay (talk) 15:12, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment - The same way William the Conqueror is inconsistent with William II of England and William III of England? UmbrellaTheLeef (talk) 17:42, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That should be under William I too, frankly. But that's a different battle. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:15, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    William the Conqueror should be moved back to William I of England. Indeed many other monarch titles that are in nickname form, should be moved back to "Monarch # of country" form. GoodDay (talk) 16:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Better known as 'Coeur de Lion' than "Lionheart". Dimadick (talk) 23:35, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME: Richard I is more prevalent in reliable sources than Richard the Lionheart. Furthermore, Richard I of England is the primary topic and primary redirect for Richard I, so the correct title per WP:NCROY is Richard I and I would support a move to that title. Rosbif73 (talk) 09:22, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Unlike "Frederick the Great" and "Constantine the Great", Richard the Lionheart is not the definitive epithet of Richard I. As others have pointed out, he has also been "The Lionhearted" and the "Coeur de Lion". If it was the definitive I'd be in favour, as it is useful for articles to use the common name for the sake of accessibility. As it stands though, there are too many variants of his epithet to justify retitling the article as "Richard the Lionheart." Notwithstanding that in reliable sources he is most commonly known as Richard I. Even in the aforementioned examples I have listed, the primary reason they use their epithet is because their is an abundance of figures that share their sovereign name.
Chariotsacha (talk) 21:34, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Change date on Treaty of Louviers[edit]

The page on Richard I shows the Treaty of Louviers as being Dec. 1195. The page for the Treaty of Louviers shows it occurred Jan. 1196.

Richard I page: War against Philip of France says Under the terms of the Treaty of Louviers (December 1195) Treaty of Louviers page: The Treaty of Louviers was signed in January 1196 and The treaty confirmed the Treaty of Issoudon signed by Richard and Philip in December 1195 CMMahan (talk) 00:04, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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