Talk:Viking metal

Early discussion

It's incredibly how most of you forget the fact that there would be NO Viking metal without the "Hammer of the Gods" sounds... Led Zeppelins "Immigrant Song" made it possible for everyong else to incorporate Norse/VIking mythology into their songs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.18.211.25 (talk) 19:00, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I fail to see why disinctions start at Amon Amarth not being considered for the list when Enslaved clearly has moved beyond their Viking metal roots (Ruun? I mean seriously) Not to mention the point that was raised about Forefather who clearly are not Viking metal and yet are still listed here...Darkwoods as well seems pretty suspect in my view. But most of all, I can't see why Turisas can be listed with a note explaining the descrepecy and yet no one will allow Amon Amarth? Just because they are not TRVE viking metal? Their sound at times does come close to being pretty Viking and as far as everything else goes, their lyrics/attitude/look basically scream, 'oh that Viking band'

There are plenty other genres where people will exclude a band based on their not being exactly the genre, but others will allow in based on the lyrics (i'm having this probelem with Space Rock recently as some people are allowing Surf Rock to be allowed in because some of the bands talk about outer space) where clearly they shouldn't be there. I can't say I see at all the same case here for Amon Amarth as long as there is a note.....I mean its not like people are going to be then springboarding from Amon Amarth being listed to submitting Yngwie Malmsteen/Hammerfall/etc in just because they might have a song or two about Vikings.

Amon in my view should clearly be an exception. HoichitheEarless 18:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC) HoichitheEarless

Based upon the definition of this subject within the article, I believe Amon Amarth would be more than suitable as an addition to the list of prominent "Viking metal" bands. Equilibrium would also be a worthy candidate. Anyone have a particular opposition to this? --Eldvindr 23:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

To be more clear about the criticism I was given: I have clearly stated I don't believe there are any unique musical aspects in Viking metal that would make it a legitimate sub-genre of music. As this is an information article, I'm not sure how I would go about comparing and contrasting the musical elements of the various "Viking metal" bands. I could certainly make a case presentation about it, taking parts of Viking metal songs and comparing structures and intruments and progressions to other forms of music to see if I could find anything distinct, but I know what the outcome of this would be. The "proof" I was charged to uphold in the article is within the music itself, a truth I am ill-suited to provide evidence for over an informational article such as wikipedia. Its rationalization is just as legitimate as any other sub-genre article written here.

I would accuse people who believe their favorite genre of music is viking metal to be either too general, or ill-informed, but I would not go so far as to say they are wrong. For example, I thoroughly enjoy the music of Ensiferum, which is considered by many to be "viking metal", yet I personally do not enjoy the music of Enslaved, who is also considered "viking metal", and by some, the same genre of music. I would say in this particular case people are mistaken, as the two bands are clearly not of the same musical genre.

This is the main problem with the usage of the term, and I tried to portray that within the article. I believe that covers all points that are relevant to this article, if you have an opinion, question, or suggestion regarding the subject I would love to discuss it. --Eldvindr 03:33, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Well then, let me try to face these misunderstandings head on rather than at the roots if you prefer.

"What I was trying to demonstrate to you with my examples of bands like Moonsorrow, Ensiferum and Falkenbach was that there is simply not enough of a musical connection between all of these bands to consider Viking metal a musical genre." First you say you point out bands such as Ensiferum or Moonsorrow because bands like that have no musical similarities. No, I did not say there is no musical connection, I was trying to point out the musical connection between these bands are not over the medium of "Viking metal". By "not enough of a musical connection", I stated there are not enough (if any) unique musical elements exclusive to "Viking metal" to consider it a legitimate sub-genre. So indeed, "you say they do have similarities, but not because they're both Viking Metal."

And honestly, who cares what the bands say? This is a fair argument, although you exaggerate the intention of my statement, I only said it was something interesting to note. I shall quote myself, "As I have said I have heard the entirety of Einherjer's discography, and I fully recognize their influence on the genre," (and Moonsorrow) "(which should be included in the article), but I do not believe they were nearly as influential musically or thematically as Bathory."

Next. You're opposing calling Amon Amarth viking metal just because you "prefer" to call them melodeath. Wow, how terribly open-minded of you. Especially when you're okay with calling Enslaved viking metal due to the theme they have. Actually, I am as "opposed" to calling Enslaved Viking metal as I am Amon Amarth, and by "opposed" I mean: It is a loaded term that is potentially misleading in nature, (thus I avoid using it if possible) but has become rooted and there is little I can do but live with it, much like the word "Viking" itself.

I have to step out for a few hours, but I will finish explaining myself soon. My initial intention of putting out the most accurate article on this subject stands, and as such I am willing to be convinced, and would have you not give up just yet until you have said what you have been meaning to say, because I know you have been working towards proving me wrong, and I do not doubt entirely you are capable of it. --Eldvindr 18:02, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Your knowledge of history is as poor as your reasoning. Even after major discoveries were proven, some narrow-minded groups still didn't believe it. I've proven it's a seperate style by pointing out similarities in those bands, which don't appear in other genres. For example drumming, which I believe you never confronted.

But maybe you should do more proving. Because so far you only keep contradicting yourself. "Perhaps you could describe Moonsorrow as Melodic/Progressive Metal with Folk aspects on the album Kivenkantaja." the context you keep pointing out never existed. You only try to dodge the arguments. First you say you point out bands such as Ensiferum or Moonsorrow because bands like that have no musical similarities. Once proven wrong you say they do have similarities, but not because they're both Viking Metal. Then you go on stating another genre, apparently just to dodge the similarity argument, because later you neglect you even said that.

And honestly, who cares what the bands say? Nu-Metal bands say they're influenced by bands they have no musical similarities with. Rhapsody say they're playing Movie Score Metal (or whatever it is now). Do you listen to what the bands say or what they're playing? Because if the first, then I'm not surprised you hear no similarities between Viking Metal bands.

Next. You're opposing calling Amon Amarth viking metal just because you "prefer" to call them melodeath. Wow, how terribly open-minded of you. Especially when you're okay with calling Enslaved viking metal due to the theme they have.

And apparently you believe the atmosphere (in your so called Epic Metal) comes out of nowhere. Maybe the bands cast runes on their albums and the atmosphere appears in a magical way. Because instead of pointing out a purely Black/Death/Power/Gothic/Whatever metal band which existed before viking-era Bathory and already had this Epic feeling to it (after all viking metal only takes elements from other genres, right? There is no similarity in those bands and sure as hell no new elements, so the atmosphere must come from other genres) you give example of album which is classed as Viking Metal in the first place.

Your argumentation is poor. You don't point out musical elements of any bands, don't compare musical elements with those of other genres. Don't refer to music, but to what the bands say. Use subjective judgement, as you "prefer" to call bands in some other way. Neglect what you said before, refering to a non-existing context. Don't refer to underground Viking Metal bands which represent the genre better, only mainstream ones which are mixed with other genres in the first place. So what authority in this topic do you believe yourself to have?

I even wonder if you'd be able to point out what differs between Heavy and Power Metal without looking it up before answering. I also wonder how'd you explain for many people Viking Metal is their favorite genre if the bands differ between themselves so much. Like in my case, when I don't even know what half of those bands sing about, when I don't like Black and Death metal, find Power and Heavy cool, but dull in a long run, Gothic and Doom okay only from time to time and Folk Metal great, but as far as folk goes, more enjoyable in a non-metal form.

And by the way, read what you agree to when you submit article to wikipedia. Your answer to my edit shows you didn't do it before. Or that you don't understand. Both with just about same possibility.

I don't see point in carrying on with this, so after your next answer just assume I said "You're right and I'm wrong".

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Yes, you are taking it out of context when you make the claim I referred to Moonsorrow as Progressive metal, because in that sentence I was referring to the progressive aspects on that album in comparison to their other albums. In the words at Moonsorrow.com: "Losing some of the progressive elements, this new epoch entitled Verisäkeet is the band as epic as it gets."

Also, while we're on Moonsorrow, it is interesting to note not one of the members mentioned listening to Einherjer or taking inspiration from them, yet nearly all of them claim that Bathory was a major influence on them, in their own words.

As I have said I have heard the entirety of Einherjer's discography, and I fully recognize their influence on the genre, (which should be included in the article), but I do not believe they were nearly as influential musically or thematically as Bathory.

Apparently you have countered my poor comparisons with an even poorer one. People believe the earth is round? I should hope so, we have proven it. Does viking metal have musical elements that are unique and have been developed uniquely in the "genre" that are not found in other forms of music? I don't believe so, so I emplore you, prove it. --Eldvindr 15:42, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Let me check... Yes, that's what I said. They were more influenced by Einherjer, hence musical similarities. And what the hell? "Perhaps you could describe Moonsorrow as Melodic/Progressive Metal with Folk aspects on the album Kivenkantaja. " <-- you clearly described Moonsorrow as Progressive Metal, I'm taking something out of context?

Did you possibly miss the second paragraph? Because by saying "More and more people are referring to Viking metal as a legitimate musical genre? So it must be true, right?" that's how it looks like. I said I can figure out on my own whether band is Viking Metal or not by listening to music rather than lyrics. And the fact that major reviewing websites use it says for something. Does Death Metal describe late Månegarm? No. Black Metal? Not at all. Power, Heavy, Doom, Gothic, Folk? No. When I gave a link to sample from their website on a non-metal related forums, first comment was that the song is awesome, followed by "it's viking metal, isn't it?". People recognise Viking Metal style in the music. And the fact you don't even know Einherjer were very influential for the genre tells me you weren't even trying to look into musical similarities between them and bands like Moonsorrow, Ensiferum, Thyrfing or Mithotyn. Shows how much effort you've given into this.

"More and more people are referring to Viking metal as a legitimate musical genre? So it must be true, right?" Many people also believe the Earth is round, maybe I shouldn't believe they are right depise that I can perceive it on my own as well? Or that there's gravity? Or that there's such music as "metal"? Your comparisons are one word "poor". If I say that I have reasons to believe they are right, then don't come up with such examples as "rumors".

Moonsorrow not influenced by Bathory...?...

And I didn't say Moonsorrow was Progressive metal, don't take it out of my context and use it against me. Kivenkantaja is comparatively Progressive to their earlier material and Verisäkeet.

More and more people are referring to Viking metal as a legitimate musical genre? So it must be true, right? This effect is reminiscent of high school rumors. --Eldvindr 00:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't see much possibilities in something like that if Moonsorrow is to be called "progressive metal" in here. Seriously, many people keep accepting viking metal as seperate style and it shows among major metal reviewing sites:

http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=89

http://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&sid=1&id=5185

http://www.metalstorm.ee/bands/view_band.php?band_id=moonsorrow

On the last website i have to point out the viking metal genre used to be highly opposed, but that changed soon after reviewers started using the term to describe the music. You know, I rarely know what the bands sing about, as many of them sing in Germanic languages which I don't understand. And still, I classify them as viking metal judging by the elements I pointed out before. And you know what? Later I find those bands in various "viking metal" lists. I listen to nearly 40 viking metal bands and not all of them sing about vikings or Norsemen... Pretty big "coincidence", I would think. And by the way, I think Moonsorrow were influenced by Einherjer, not Bathory. They aren't as similar to the latter.

On an additional note, I believe once we fully understand eachother, we should collaborate and revise/update the current article into something more professional, elaborate and comprehensive. That is, if you are not too angry to be able to work with me, haha. --Eldvindr 22:59, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay, the guy is wearing Mjolnir around his neck and is standing in a Dragon ship...

Epic Metal? Blood Fire Death is an excellent example. Among being nordic themed black metal, the atmosphere is epic and this is another element that has been very influential in contemporary metal.

On the theme we are talking about, I am simply saying that Bathory has been by far the most influential band. I am sure you are correct there would still be bands that would make music about Norse mythology, culture and such, but I doubt this theme would be nearly as substantial or developed if Bathory had not existed. So on that note, I think the article should be updated to explain this, but I stand by my statement that Quorthon is the the most prominent and influential artist in "Viking metal". Furthermore, I also agree that this is indeed selling him short, as he accomplished much and had an incalculable influence on metal in general. But, as far as this topic is concerned, all we are concerned with is Viking metal, and the musical and thematic elements he developed that have relevance to it.

Contradicting myself? You still misunderstand. Enslaved is viking themed Black Metal, thus they can be considered both Black metal and Viking metal, Viking metal used to describe the theme of that band.

"Isn't only about themes". Correct, not entirely. Many of these Viking metal bands use similar musical mediums to create this "Viking" atmosphere, what I am saying is that this does not necessarily mean there are unique musical traits we can use to describe "Viking metal" that do not exist as other genres.

Amon Amarth is a Death Metal/Melodic Death Metal band, that happens to be "viking" themed. Therefore, I don't refute the fact they are viking metal, but I would prefer to refer to them as a Melodic Death Metal band. --Eldvindr 22:50, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

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Plus, what bugs me is how you contradict yourself. First you say Enslaved is Black Metal, a seperate genre, but should be considered Viking Metal, because they use viking themes. Then you go on saying viking metal isn't only about themes and that you also disagree with Amon Amarth being viking metal... Thus I stand by my first assumption about this discussion.

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Erm, as far as I know vikings weren't the only people who used chainmail and swords in medieval times... Or used boats for that matter. Finland had a culture of its own.

I didn't state you said that viking metal is fussion of metal with viking music, only wonder what made you connect what is said about folk metal to viking metal. Also what epic metal? I understand that Black Metal can be epic, but then merging it with Folk Metal, you have bands like Finntroll. So what Epic metal are you talking about?

And yes, of course despise there being bands singing about vikings before Bathory, the band was still utterly influencial for the theme. Because apparently if Bathory didn't start singing about vikings, others bands would suddenly stop singing about them. Sorry for the sarcastic tone, but the flaw is just awful.

To put it bluntly, if there were bands singing about vikings before Bathory, then why do you think forthcoming bands were influenced at all? Did metal artists suddenly become so limited that they couldn't be interested by the mythology on their own? Keep in mind I'm not saying Bathory wasn't influencial, I'm only criticizing stating all the influence was about, was creating the theme. It was far more than just that.

You're obviously still misunderstanding me fundamentally. I agree themes isn't enough to call a band viking metal, that is why I called it a "pseudo sub-genre". I've never heard Cruachan so I can not describe to you the musical similarities or lack thereof between the two, nor is it necessary for me to do so. I am only trying to point out the common themes within "Viking metal". Do I notice how some people oppose calling Amon Amarth viking metal? Yes I do, I am one of those people. Do I consider Finntroll viking metal? No, I do not. Am I not explaining myself sufficiently? I have restated myself several times now and I can't seem to get this across. Is Ensiferum "Viking", or "Germanic" themed as I was talking about in my article? You tell me. http://www.ensiferum.com/Pressikuvat/Dragonheads/ENSKA_140.jpg

I did not say that Viking metal is a fusion of metal and viking music, from what I have said, that is an impossible conclusion to draw unless you very much misunderstand me.

"Viking metal" uses types of music, ei. Folk and Epic metal as a medium to express these "Viking" themes and atmosphere.

I am aware there were bands with a Nordic theme before Bathory, such as Manowar, Quorthon even mentioned this (even though he disputed their reputability). But, who do you think had more of an influence on the Viking metal themes we are referring to? Was Enslaved and Moonsorrow more influenced by Bathory or Manowar? Simply put, Bathory was the foundation for this. --Eldvindr 19:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Viking themes isn't enough to call a band "viking metal". Ever noticed how many people oppose classifing Amon Amarth and Doomsword as Viking Metal? Especially those who listen to Viking Metal most. They say those bands only sing about vikings and have no musical similarities with other viking metal bands. And do you consider Finntroll viking metal? No, they don't sing about vikings, but Ensiferum and Turisas don't sing about them either. Yet I remember you pointing out Ensiferum as one of viking metal bands.

Now the Folk Metal bit. I'm still waiting for similarities between Korpiklaani and Cruachan. You go too far with conclusions. Yes, Folk Metal is fussion with folk music, and yes - folk music is music which expresses life of common people. But how did you come up with conclusion that Viking Metal would be a fussion of metal with viking music? Does the above mean Black Metal is fussion of metal with music of afro-american people? Or power metal fussion of metal with music of electricity? No, I only said just like in case of Folk Metal, Viking Metal focuses on creating atmosphere. The difference is Viking Metal creates epic atmosphere. Folk bands don't do that, life of peasants wasn't epic. I think Gjallarhorn describes quite well what scandinavian folk is like... Not epic.

And there were metal bands before Bathory singing about vikings (for example Legend). So what makes you think it was Bathory that started the "viking metal" thing?

And yes, Vikings are confused with Norsemen. Doesn't mean Norsemen of medieval times can be refered to as "vikings".

Yes, "Raunioilla" and "Lost in Despair" have musical similarities, this is because they are the same genre of music, however, this genre of music is not Viking metal. Perhaps you could describe Moonsorrow as Melodic/Progressive Metal with Folk aspects on the album Kivenkantaja.

This is where your argument is flawed in my opinion. Enslaved can definitely be considered "Viking metal", and should not be thought of as an outcast in the "genre" musically. Instead of having melodic elements in their music, they are a black metal band, a seperate genre, but still "viking" themed. As far as atmosphere is concerned, like I have previously stated many of these bands have similar musical intentions by being viking themed and strive for a pagan, or "medieval" atmosphere to the music, but the way they achieve this is by elements of other musical genres such as black metal and folk metal.

Do I consider Folk Metal a legitimate genre? Yes, I do. Wikipedia states "Folk metal is a sub-genre of heavy metal that incorporates elements of folk music." This is true, this genre is a fusion of metal music aspects and folk metal aspects. What is Viking metal then? Metal with "viking" aspects? That is rediculous. It is true Folk metal is defined as "music which expresses life of common people", and here it would be helpful to clarify that by "folk music", we are referring to old Scandinavian folk music, which is undoubtably different than American folk music for example, as it has unique musical characteristics about it. (Perhaps we could include this in the article).

Why say Bathory was an influence on this "Genre"? Because, it was Quorthon who created this Viking theme which has become prevalent in metal music. Blood Fire Death's influence on Enslaved, and Hammerheart's influence on Falkenbach and such is obvious, but such influences are not music through "Viking metal", but through Black Metal and Folk Metal. True, atmosphere does not come out of nowhere, it can be heard on these Bathory albums and ones influenced by them. Folk, Black, Power, and Death metal don't use the same musical aspects that are in Viking metal? I can't begin to understand why you think that is true, you'll have to explain that to me.

For the record, "cross-genre" is not my wording. In my original article I used "Pseudo sub-genre". Also, I believe that in the future there is a possibility that this theme will develop its own unique musical aspects and will be able to be considered a legitimate sub-genre of metal. But, as it stands currently, this is not the case. --Eldvindr 18:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Remember, "Viking" is a term that has become confusing in modern times, as it both can refer to the Norse people of the time, and the Norse raiders who raided, burned, pillaged and the like. It would be incorrect to assume that these were the same people, in fact, some native Norse people viewed these looting "Vikings" as enemies, and formed their own militias (leidang) to protect themselves from them. --Eldvindr 18:43, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Listen to Moonsorrow's "Raunioilla" and Ensiferum's "Lost In Despair", they have musical similarities. Just because bands sounds different in general, doesn't mean it's different genre. Otherwise with bands like Rhapsody and Iron Savior, which sound different, the Power Metal genre wouldn't exist. And with just few exceptions (like Enslaved I guess, but I'm still not sure whether they're really viking) all Viking Metal bands share the way of drumming, which does not appear in any other metal genre. Listen to Bathory's "Vinland", Thyrfing's "The Voyager", Falkenbach's "The Heathenish Foray", Nomans Land's "Lord of The Seas", Manegarm's "I Evig Tid"... all have it. The drumming is one of the main ways the viking metal buld the atmosphere, another way is simple guitarwork. Compare the atmosphere when they focus on maintaining the simple melody and when they're going into more complicated solos. I also wonder, do you consider Folk Metal an official metal genre (I think according to the "cross-genre" part you do)? If so, then why? One thing is Folk Metal isn't defined as metal with folk instruments (heck, not even folk music is defined like that) and if it was, bands like Rhapsody would have to join this group. Folk music is defined as music which expresses life of common people (as said by any dictionary, and even wiki). So Folk Metal is defined by nothing but the general atmosphere, and the bands differ greately, just as folk from different parts of world. Unlike Folk Metal, Viking Metal focuses on one region and the music creating the atmosphere is similar. But if you can point out many musical similarities between Korpiklaani and Cruachan then go ahead.

And no, Hammerheart wasn't Black Metal album, but it did have Black Metal influences. Even on Nordland II the influences could be heard, and as such until Einherjer appeared, the Viking Metal elements were mixing themselves with Black Metal. I can rather imagine bands like Thyrfing emerging under influence of Einherjer, not Bathory. Also I might ask you, if you don't see similar elements in various Viking Metal bands, then why are you saying Bathory was influencial for the genre at all? Similar atmosphere doesn't come out of nowhere, for this the bands have to play in somewhat similar way. Cross-over between different genres? Fine, listen to some song by Nomans Land ("Lord of The seas" can be downloaded on their website, although "Breath of the North" or Mithotyn's "The Old Rover" are better examples) and tell me whether it's Folk, Black, Death or Power metal... And then point out representative bands from such genres which actually hold some musical similarities with it.

Also, "vikings" WERE the Norse raiders, also skilled in exploring and bartering.

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All right, sorry for not discussing this beforehand, but I find the discussion which takes place here simply flawed. This is proven by the new comment in form of "Also, for the last time, Viking Metal is a theme, not a musical style, therefore it has no musical characteristics.", which is nothing short of a logical flaw as the valid comment would be "It has no musical characteristics, therefore it's a theme". Instead you prove reason by stating assumed outcome. Smart. And you expect anyone to discuss this topic? Now, Einherjer did have a large influence on the genre. Not only they pushed it away from Black Metal, but also made the elements more visible (and I pointed them out in later section, I'd think that would make it more apparent).

About Bathory's lyrics: "It says: Set your sails And let me take your ship to foreign shores Take farewell of those near you And your land of the North!" (obviously viking custom, since as we all know Vikings were Norse (although not only, see Jomsvikings) raiders and explorers) "God of Thunder Who crack the sky Swing your Hammer Way up high" (and belief) As you see, I did read them.

Further, I did state folk music expresses common life, while viking metal warrior's life. And I stated Falkenbach is a merge of Viking and Folk genres. So what are you trying to prove by pointing out a song which was placed on their most folk-influenced album? And yes, Moonsorrow's music is relatively more simple than that of say, Death Metal bands. Just compare early Amon Amarth (melodeath) with Amon Amarth's latest album (melodeath/viking). Which is more complex? About Ensiferum, they obviously have power metal influences, which shows in guitar work.

I'd gladly discuss this topic in here, but I'd expect some open-mindness, while your "for the last time, it's a theme" attitude tells me that won't happen. I discussed this topic many times before, with many different people. Checked many mainstream and underground viking metal bands to figure out what defines them and what creates this atmosphere. After all this me and many other people came to agreement that it's a seperate style. Thanks to this I kept changing and expanding my knowledge of Viking Metal, but it only happened around people who approached the topic openly. And here I find a discussion with so strong signs of narrow-mindness that it seems as if the discussion was all about "getting out victorious" and not figuring out the truth. I know what I did was wrong, but what do you expect from a discussion where instead of asking others why they think so, you push your opinions onto them? I expect nothing. And if anything, as examples give bands like late Manegarm, Nomans Land or Iuvenes (not the middle stuff), which are closer to pure viking metal than the bands you pointed out. I don't know what cross-genres are supposed to prove...

This is better, I doubt I am as narrow-minded as you might think, but now that I am in a better mood, (perhaps it was a bad time for me to have posted my thoughts after seeing the majority of the article I wrote deleted without any warning) I would be happy to discuss these finer points with you.

I have no doubt that Bathory's lyrics on Hammerheart are about Vikings and Norsemen, but "Beliefs and customs of the Norse raiders" is not well phrased to describe this. The theme seems more to me as epic tales of Norse Gods, warriors and their adventures, and great battles. As far as Einherjer is concerned, Hammerheart was not a black metal album, and was the definitive foundation for this developing of this theme in metal, therefore they couldn't have really pushed the "genre" away from black metal. If you would like to describe what specific elements were innovative and influenced later viking metal, I would be glad to hear your opinion, I do have the album.

What I was trying to demonstrate to you with my examples of bands like Moonsorrow, Ensiferum and Falkenbach was that there is simply not enough of a musical connection between all of these bands to consider Viking metal a musical genre. And that making a statement like viking metal is simplistic in nature, and generally has "simple guitar riffs" is simply erroneous. We can make note of similar influences and genres among the bands that have the theme of viking metal, such as folk and black metal, (stemming from Bathory) but we can not make general assumptions about the musical aspects in Viking Metal itself as it covers so many different genres. I was trying to portray in my original article that viking metal bands share similar musical aesthetic opinions, because of their similar ideals, artistic goals and interests in the creation of this kind of musical theme. I would not take it any further than this. --Eldvindr 00:56, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay, regarding the recent (and major) "update" by the anonymous poster: First of all, I see no particular effort of yours to discuss the topic within this page, and take in the opinions of your peers regarding this subject, peers who apparently have a better grasp of the subject than you do. The added paragraph of "Aurora Borealis" is unnecessary, as Einherjer simply did not have a substantial enough effect on this genre to be singled out, not to mention you give absolutely no support of this claim if they did. What distinguishing elements did they have? And how is it substantial enough to deserve recognition in this sense in comparison to Hammerheart? As for the following paragraph, (unfounded as the former), it is not true that the term originated from the referring to Bathory's lyrics, among being misplaced and false, it is contradicting to previous statements. "Beliefs and customs of the norse raiders" were not what the lyrics were about if you have actually read them, and making the point that later "viking metal" started to incorporate other germanic pagan cultures besides the Vikings is terribly worded and questionable in relavence at that.

Also, for the last time, Viking Metal is a theme, not a musical style, therefore it has no musical characteristics. All the following text is therefore inappropriate and false. Does Ensiferum have "simple guitar riffs"?, is Moonsorrow's music "relatively simple"? Are songs like "Donar's Oak", and "Matkan Lopussa" about "life filled with battles and bloodshed", or are they not considered Viking Metal? Perhaps this just relates to the pagan ideals I referred to in my original article, which you have so thoughtfully deleted.

Furthermore, with your random additions and deletions of my previous work, it is no longer consistant with my original intent, and I do not want them there in the first place if they are to be in such a context. Consult with us here and we will work on revisions and additions through discussion, or don't bother at all. --Eldvindr 22:54, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

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To the recent editor: I consider the quote by Quorthon to be an integral part of this article as it explains the development of Viking metal itself, considering he is in fact the mastermind of the "genre". Also, the fact that germanic folklore is "epic", is certainly not an opinion. That said, I agree with you on all other changes made for professionalism and erroneous POV. --Eldvindr 01:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Then please add an inline citation to the website containing the quote, as adding copyrighted material from other websites is disallowed on Wikipedia. If you dont know how to add citations, then put the link here and ill do it. Sorry for being bitchy, im having a bad night tonight, so my attitude is appauling by all measures. Leyasu 02:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

My apologies, I wasn't familiar with these specific rules, as I am unable to find a direct sentence link to this quote from Quorthon, (somewhat rediculous to me that a direct quote is copyrighted), I will ask the webmaster at Bathory.se for permission. Could you elaborate on why my choice of the word "epic" is unaccaptable in its original context? If you do not recall, I ended with "The music is often highly romanticized and epic much as Norse folklore itself, and creates an atmosphere rich both in Germanic heroic and metal music tradition." Perhaps you read it differently than I had intended it, not in a sense of praise but rather a way to describe its elaborate and romantic nature. If this is unacceptable, perhaps we can come up with a compromise, as "exaggerated" hits my ears rather foully. --Eldvindr 02:48, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok fair enough. Your right, as when i read epic, it comes off as praise. Probally the different sides of the ocean and the way English and American read. What did you mean by Epic? As in, what were you trying to convey with the word epic? As exaggerated means 'Pumped Up', 'Made to seem more glorious', etc - an adjective that means this that reads less praise like would be more suitable. Leyasu 02:54, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Hah, yes that makes more sense. To me, (perhaps as an American) exaggerate essentially means to me to overextend expression unrealistically for purpose of effect, (such as: while in a long line, "there were a million of them lined up!") and is viewed as somewhat negative, therefore inappopriate for what I'm trying to convey. Perhaps this will help, a dictionary definition of "Epic": A dramatic composition that resembles an extended narrative poem celebrating heroic feats.

Also, on a related note, perhaps this has some relavence to the copyright situation: "In the case where an image is noted as owned and copyrighted by bathory.se, we would appriciate it if such an image is denoted as copyrighted by www.bathory.se when used in another medium/forum." Unfortunately, I have found nothing pertaining to the quotations on the page, (somewhat rediculous to me that a direct quote is copyrighted), but I have emailed the admin of the site, and I will await his response to the matter. (I was unable to find a direct link to the specific quote I was planning to use, only the page on which it appears.) http://www.bathory.se/08/08_writing_the_deeds_of_darkness_and_evil.htm --Eldvindr 03:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, I'm not entirely sure "figurehead" is even grammatically correct in its context, my previous use of "quintessence" was corrected as well after being revised from "Paragon". Quintessential essentially means, "Of, relating to, or having the nature of a quintessence; being the most typical", and "representing the perfect example of a class quality". Again for reference, it was originally, "The album remains a quintessential work of the genre, and is considered by many to be the one of the most important and influential release in Viking Metal’s history." --Eldvindr 03:10, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Saying 'the most' sounds POV. Saying Quintessential sounds POV to those who dont know the meaniing. Try something like what i have now, or alternatly '"The album remains a typical example of the genre, and is considered by many to be the an important and influential release in Viking Metal’s history."

Also, i will show you how to do an inline citation such as this one [1]. Leyasu 03:19, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe ignorance should result in the revision of anything, especially since typical also comes across derogatory, it has overtones of comformity and blandness to me. Can we compromise with "The album remains a quintessential work of the genre, is is widely considered an important and influential release in Viking Metal's history."?

So if I use that inline citation you have provided at the end of the quote, it will be acceptable? --Eldvindr 03:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Remember, ignorance isnt always ignorance in the sense that things read differently across the oceans. Try using a different word instead of quintessential. Also, use the inline citation instead of the quote. Its typically how things work on Wikipedia (I learned this after removing a lot fo them from another article and getting scorned). Leyasu 03:54, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I will certainly keep that in mind, but that's not what we were talking about, you were referring to a general misinterpretation due to ignorance rather than a European interpretation. In any case I'll work on it tomorrow, as for the citation, how do you propose I work such a thing into this article? --Eldvindr 04:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Ill go fix the citation now, per example. The purpose of showing you, is so you know for your future edits and devolping of articles, so hope this helps. Leyasu 04:11, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Alright, that works well, I am doing a final edit to change the wording to something more to my original intent without erroneous POV. I have changed the sentence leading up to the citation to "Quorthon (The mastermind of Bathory)" as he is not a member of Bathory, but the only member, (despite several additions to the band that rarely lasted more than a single album) and the one behind the creative and musical aspects of the band. Secondly, I changed the conclusion statement regarding "Hammerheart" to "The album is regarded by many as an important and influential release in Viking Metal’s history." Which is an understatement, as the album was the foundation of the entire genre, but I can live with that. And lastly, I changed the wording at the end of the article back to epic, but to "epic in composition", which should clarify that I am referring to the construction in composition, as the Nordic sagas are in fact, "Epics". --Eldvindr 14:45, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

---

Viking Metal is not Scandinavian Death Metal, as the redirection link claims.
Viking Metal is a sub-genre of Black Metal, and consists of mostly Black Metal bands such as Enslaved, Bathory, Mithotyn, Thyrfing, Kamfar, and so on.

Viking Metal is not a sub-genre period. If I wrote a black metal song about fairies and threw in some interesting techniques, would I have created the Fairy Metal subgenre?

Viking Metal is NOT a subgenre of Black Metal. It does in many cases share the musical characteristics of BM. Viking metal is however a term that describes the content of the music rather than the actual sound. There are a lot of Epic and Power Metal bands that could fall within this genre. Chelman 22:39, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Anyway..check this piece of text out and lemme know what you think: http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1457768 Chelman 22:42, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

That article is pretty good, I think it could be a worthy replacement article to the currently existing one (as you've said, it is fundamentally flawed), if it were expanded and written a bit more pricesely and professionally. --Eldvindr 19:46, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Empyrium?!

I would never consider Empyrium anything to do with viking metal. Firstly they aren't from a viking country (being German), and while they do have the slightly blackish growls in places, two out of their four albums were entirely acoustic based.

From what I've long heard, in ancient times at least, the Germans were culturally and religiously similiar to the Vikings. Gringo300 02:06, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It really doesn't matter what country the band comes from. It's the musical style that's important in determining what genre a band falls under. -D14BL0 04:31, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Scandinavians are Northern Germanic, and the "Vikings" did in fact have a very similar mythology and culture to other Germanic peoples of the time. If you think Germans can't do 'Viking Metal', listen to Falkenbach. --Eldvindr 19:38, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Reference?

Uhm, this writing [2] says

"The 'formal' origins of Viking Metal can be traced more or less to 1988 when the Swedish one man formation Bathory released their/his third album titled Blood, Fire, Death. Bathory i.e. Quorthon has incorporated mythical Norse and Germanic themes in both the artwork as well as the lyrics on the album. The music had a very epic and bombastic sound to it. Bathory has released two more albums which insipered the genre and garnered Quorthon a cult following: Hammerheart and Twilight of the Gods (which happens to be my personal favourite)."

Then we look at the current version here:

"The 'formal' origins of Viking Metal can be traced more or less to 1988 when the Swedish one man formation Bathory released their/his third album titled Hammerheart. Bathory i.e. Quorthon has incorporated mythical Norse and Germanic themes in both the artwork as well as the lyrics on the album. The music had a very epic and bombastic sound to it. Bathory has released two more albums which insipered the genre and garnered Quorthon a cult following: Hammerheart and Twilight of the Gods."

But maybe that writing copied WP? So I check this one older update from 2005 (the everything2 one is from 2003) [3] and there it hadn't been added.

The "Interesting records" was copied too... Geez. Except moving down the Falkenbach quote it copied the whole damn thing. {sjöar}

(cur) (last) 14:47, 28 October 2005 Chelman m (typo)
(cur) (last) 14:46, 28 October 2005 Chelman (expanded on the hisotry and background)

Oh. Right. Heh. The everything2 writer. {sjöar}

Check the user name under which the E2 writeup was posted....i think you may find a striking resemblance to my current username here. ;) Chelman 08:56, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello

You have forgotten to tell many viking metal band are racist /thx

Please name some, how they are racist, and give links to articles that support your claim. Ley Shade 15:30, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

POV claims. Most Vking Metal Bands dont care about race, and if they do, its usually affirmation of one, and not disproval of another. Thats not being racist.

List of viking metal bands merge

Just to inform people I have merged the list of viking metal bands into this article. I began a discussion on it on the list of viking metal bands article 8 days ago, and have since had 2 agreements and no disagreements, so I have gone ahead. I have cleared up any double redirects I could find (apart from one within a deletion log, which stated it was not to be edited). I've left the list in this format, and feel it doesn't cause any problems. Prophaniti 20:00, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Classification of metal bands in general

I'm placing this discussion point on a number of different lists of metal bands of differing genres, because it's a general point addressing many of them as a whole. I watch a number of metal band lists, and see an awful lot of reverting back and forth, often due to debate about what genre a band is. Think of this point as a kind of appeal for sanity. If in doubt about a bands genre, check their wikipedia article. If they don't have one, either make one if you think they should, or take whatever sources (e.g. the bands homepage) you might normally use in such an article. But ultimately the point of this is the wikipedia articles are the first and usually last place of reference. If you feel the classification of a band if wrong, then take that to the article in question, do not start having revert wars on the lists, going back and forth. If you feel that a band is wrongly classified, then go and debate that on their page, where there are likely more people who have something to say on the matter, and where it will need changing anyway if at all. It's confusing if the lists give one genre and the main articles another. If you have a good case for the genre being changed, then you should be able to do so on the main article of the band, and then you'll have every right to change the list article too. If we just accept that the main articles for bands are the primary point of reference for their genre, then things become a lot simpler. Someone's removed a band from the gothic metal list and you think it's not right? Go check the article. If it clearly says they're gothic metal, even in part, at some point during their career, or have influences of that, then there you go. No one can argue with that, and if they wish to they will have to take it to the main article. The lists are there to refer people to bands based on genre, they are not the place to debate genre in the first place. There will always be basic vandalism of course, but if people take note of this point I'd hope it might lessen all this silly waring over genre. Thank you. Prophaniti 17:44, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Keep Amon Amarth out of this

Amon Amarth are not Viking metal, they are melo-death. Their Viking themed lyrics are not enough to add them here, for if that were than we should have Unleashed added here, who I'm sure most of you would not want added to this article.

Please stop adding them to the list.

—————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

If Viking Metal "is a cross-genre reference usually used to describe the lyrical and thematic elements of bands rather than the music itself" how then can you say that Amon Amarth are not Viking Metal? All that they EVER sing about are Vikings and Norse mythology. Without a doubt they are one of the biggest Viking metal bands around today.

Also, if Amon Amarth don't count as Viking Metal, how can Forefather POSSIBLY count as Viking metal? They themselves state they are Anglo-Saxon metal (not Vikings). Yes, they had most of the same gods etc but the Anglo-Saxons were NOT vikings and Forefather's lyrics are not about Vikings.

"Amon Amarth are not Viking metal, they are melo-death." What does the metal sub-genre matter when talking about a label created to signify subject matter? If Amon Amarth were a Christian melo-death band you'd still classify them as a Christian metal band. Without a doubt Forefather are Folk Metal and Amon Amarth melodic death metal but Viking metal is supposed to be a way of grouping bands together that reflects only the lyrical and thematic content, regardless of the actual metal sub-genre.

I agree with the article as a whole but feel that this opinion of Amon Amarth is wrong and am interested to know your thoughts.

81.178.249.35 16:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Mike

_____________________________________________________

The problem with this is that Viking metal isn't a "cross-reference" genre used to describe the lyrics and the themes that the bands deal with since lyrics don't determine genres. The thing is most people misunderstand Viking metal and don't realize it that it is truely based upon actual musical aspects (things I am very underqualified in terms of my knowledge of the technical aspects of music and generally in a vocabulary based sense to speak of) but when you listen to Bathory's Hammerheart you are essentially listening to what Viking metal sounds like. That album determined the sound that Viking metal would take and evolve, some removing the folk elements thus making it impossible to call Folk and Viking metal one and the same.

If you listen to Ancient Rites, Thyrfing, Moonsorrow, Mithotyn, Falkenbach, Equilibrium, Myrkgrav, and Tyr you will hear musical similarities that you won't find in bands such Amon Amarth. It is largely in the guitar work and "atmosphere" of it all.

_____________________________________________________

Please see WP:CON. If a change keeps getting edited back in by multiple editors with a single objector, it should probably stay in. A quick trip to Google turns up 71,000 pages containing both "Amon Amarth" and "viking metal." That's 9% of all pages containing the phrase "viking metal." It's fairly safe to say that whatever the definition of "viking metal" is generally agreed to be, Amon Amarth falls into it. If you would like to note common musical themes among various viking metal bands, by all means, go ahead, but please consider that the definition of the subgenre may be broader than your interpretation of it. And to everyone, please sign your contributions on the talk page. Riotgear 19:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Finntroll?

Even with the section on troll metal how can finntroll be coutned as a viking metal band whenthey don't even reference Norse mythology, Trolls are not specifically Norse

Personally, I wouldn't count any troll metal band as viking metal. That's why there's the distinction between troll and viking metal...subject matter.

Finntroll have done viking metal... jakens tid album. that makes them viking metal. (Sunsetterxxx (talk) 02:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC))

Troll metal

Troll metal redirects to Folk metal currently, should probably redirect here since it has a subsection here? 212.111.9.59 17:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I actually considered that. But look above at the Fintroll section; as far as I know, both "viking" and "troll" metal are forms of "folk" metal. Whereas viking metal has quite a large number of bands in such a thing, I think it might deserve a genre of itself, sort of like melodic death or whatever... So don't really know. Perhaps troll metal would be better linking to folk metal. Or even viking metal being a subgenre of folk metal. --Dayn 03:23, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I fail to see why disinctions start at Amon Amarth not being considered for the list when Enslaved clearly has moved beyond their Viking metal roots (Ruun? I mean seriously) Not to mention the point that was raised about Forefather who clearly are not Viking metal and yet are still listed here...Darkwoods as well seems suspect. But most of all, I can't see why Turisas can be listed with a note explaining the descrepecy and yet no one will allow Amon Amarth? Just because they are not TRVE viking metal? Their sound at times does come close to being pretty Viking and as far as everything else goes, their lyrics/attitude/look basically scream, 'oh that Viking band'

There are plenty other genres where people will exclude a band based on their not being exactly the genre, but others will allow in based on the lyrics (i'm having this probelem with Space Rock recently as some people are allowing Surf Rock to be allowed in because some of the bands talk about outer space) where clearly they shouldn't be there. I can't say I see at all the same case here for Amon Amarth as long as there is a note.....I mean its not like people are going to be then springboarding from Amon Amarth being listed to submitting Yngwie Malmsteen/Hammerfall/etc in just because they might have a song or two about Vikings.

Amon in my view should clearly be an exception.

Format

This article is not written in the usual format for a genre of music. I recommend making the article's appearance more like Heavy Metal, Punk Rock, Grunge, or any other featured article for a genre of music. Savagepine 21:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Merge?

Would anyone oppose a merge with Vikingarock? I'm not formally proposing one yet because I'm not sure whether or not there is a distinction. Heather 00:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Never mind; they apparantly are different. See Talk:Vikingarock. Apologies for the confusion. Heather 11:32, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Wintersun

Why is Wintersun always called Viking metal? Although I don't know too much about Viking metal, I know that one of the main requirements to be classified Viking metal is to have lyrics, ABOUT VIKINGS. Jari's former band may have been Viking/Folk, but it doesn't mean Wintersun is. Listen to it... there is NO mention of vikings, viking activity, or Odin and the gang. I'll leave it be for a few days, and if no one objects, I'll remove it. WinterSteel 20:20, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Quite correct, nothing Viking-ey at all about Wintersun, "Lyrically the album deals with mastermind Jari's life, feelings, emotions, hallucinations and dreams, facts that make the record a very personal piece of work." - Wintersun's Myspace

Illwish (talk) 18:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

You don't need Viking lyrics to be Viking metal; just look at modern Thyrfing...What about Moonsorrow? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.163.49.132 (talk) 21:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Bloodfiredeath.jpg

Image:Bloodfiredeath.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 03:34, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Moonspell?

So why the hell Mooonspell is in the list?? They are straightforward gothic metal band!!

Band list

A good number of the bands listed as Viking Metal aren't. If there's going to be so much discussion of this, with no agreement whatsoever, why not just remove the list of bands? It's not informative as it is anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.129.97 (talk) 14:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I definitely agree. For example Unleashed and Amon Amarth have been already discussed, and CONSENSUS is that they are NOT Viking Metal. But people keeps listing em as such. Whoever keeps listing, STOP it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.7.53 (talk) 14:27, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

oahh people wake up!..

Hello, Viking Metal is NOT a fucking genre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.150.240 (talk) 17:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC) Such a convincing argument. It changes my mind right away. Now try persuading viking metal bands of that. Moron. Viking metal is a very complex genre, that takes a someone with an ear for musicianship to understand. Demon Prince Hosoku (talk) 20:46, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

A genre is not defined by what their lyrics portray, it would be like calling a hard rock band that happens to have quite a few songs relating to the topic of death a death metal band. It just doesn't work. At best, this may be considered a sub-genre of various types of metal but is truly nothing more. Besides, by the reasoning that lyrics make a band "viking metal" Led Zeppelin would be considered the first because Immigrant Song was about Leif Ericson, an actual Viking. Hmmm... imagine that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.27.179.191 (talk) 20:23, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

But Viking metal isn't Viking metal solely for the fact that they sing about Vikings (see: Moonsorrow, later Thyrfing). Otherwise, Unleashed would be Viking metal too, which is hilariously laughable. It's a genre, usually characterised by hypnotic and mesmerising, or bold riffing with proud shouting, clean or growled voice, optional symphonic styled keyboard usually playing atop abrassive guitar and so on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.163.49.132 (talk) 21:47, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Viking metal isnt a genre, Viking metal is a term to label bands from Scandinavia, its a crock of shit, and lyrical theme has fuck all to do with it, oh, this band sings about satan, they are satan metal, this band sings about flowers, they are flower metal. Get a fucking grip.—Preceding unsigned comment

Oh my god, try to listen to your self? Death Metal bands don't always sing about death, and have you ever heard a Metallica or Megadeth song about Trash? That would be hilarious... No, viking metal IS a genre. It's spawned from european black metal, folk metal and death metal. Combined with elements of numerous other genres. There is a clear distinction between viking metal bands and Black metal bands from scandinavia. And surprisingly, actually a majority of Viking Metal bands come from slavic countries, NOT Scandinavia... So go listen to Guns & Roses you ignorant niddings.. TheEsb (talk) 15:10, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Erm, it's not trash, it's THRASH. MrBook (talk) 15:35, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Oseberg-art?

I don't know exactly what this means. Is it referring to Oseberg? I didn't want to add a link to there without being sure. Jes Suis Muzzy! - Bonjour 00:45, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Important questions to all

First, why is the "v" in Viking metal always capitalized? In other articles they don't and treat the word as they would any other genre (i.e. black metal, death metal, etc.). I'm guessing it has something to do with it not being just a noun or something. But I don't understabnd as of yet why it can't be "viking metal" as opposed to "Viking metal" when it's in a sentence. Secondly, this article needs more. Sure more info and stuff would be nice, but one or two pictures would be good. Probabaly a pic of the Blood Fire Death album or Hammerheart, seeing as how those are those are the first (V?)viking metal albums. Lastly, what's up with the (v?)Viking metal band list? It looks nothing like the other metal band lists such as the list of thrash metal bands, the list of black metal bands, etc. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 20:34, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Viking is always capitalized because it is the name of a group of people. See the article for Viking. That is the same reason why Celtic metal and Christian metal are always capitalized as well. As for the list of Viking metal bands, I was the one that recreated the list and I simply followed the format that I used when I redesigned the list of folk metal bands. I believe the advantages of this format are self-evident: you have details for each band on their country of origin, year of formation and debut album. You can sort the list by any of those criteria so that you can see at a glance all the bands that come from a particular country or get a chronology of when the bands released their debut album. Most importantly, the list includes a space where we can add references for verifiability. That column can also be used for notes where we can add more details. It is not necessary to mention in the lead section that Viking metal bands mix the genre with other styles as you've done when we can go as far as to specifically mention those other styles in the notes column as I did for the folk metal list. --Bardin (talk) 00:45, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok thanks for the answers. You definitely answer them all to my satisfaction. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 23:22, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Fusion with other genres

This is a common element among Viking metal bands. I think it's interesting to note one thing, though. Viking metal has stylistic origins in black metal (primarily because of Bathory) and yet there are many Viking metal bands today that not only combine elements of both Viking and black metal but instead Viking metal and death metal (or melodeath). Amon Amarth does this (thought they are more melodeath than anything else). A prime example would be Ensiferum, though. They are Viking metal and have no hint of black metal in their music at all. Mostly they have hints of melodic death metal in their music. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 19:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Is there any common element among Viking metal bands aside from the lyrics? A review of a Bathory album on Allmusic.com describes their Viking metal as Wagnerian lengthy epics with orchestral arrangements, chorused vocals, and ambient keyboards. Do you think these are characteristics of just Bathory and maybe a few other bands or are they characteristics of the Viking metal genre as a whole? As an aside, I've noticed you've changed the stylistic origins from folk metal to folk music. I agree that Viking metal does not originate from folk metal but I don't really think it originates from folk music either. Probably best to just get rid of that unless you know something I don't. I think black metal is the only genre that should be included as a stylistic origin. Maybe add death metal too. Thoughts? --Bardin (talk) 14:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I think you could include thrash metal, not so much the death though. Bathory are Viking/thrash, afterall. The boldness of those typical Viking metal riffs (Enslaved's 'Isa' - chorus, Vintersorg's 'Isjunfrun' - the passage that links the two growled sections, Windir's 'Heidra' - the main verse riff) seems to me like a hyrbid between thrash and something else? The something else makes it a stand-alone genre, e.g. Viking metal. I'd say that Viking metal frequently takes influence from black, folk and thrash metal but obviously bands that play Viking metal don't necessarily take influence from those metal genres. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.163.49.132 (talk) 21:40, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

A plea for improvement OR deletion

This article needs a lot of work. I'm aware it's been nominated for deletion before and the result was to keep. Having looked over the archived debate, there wasn't an overwhelming cry either way.

I'm not here to call for it to be deleted, but rather for improvement: it needs more sources, good ones. Thus far, all we have are some reviews from allmusic and a handful of internet ones. To me, that's not really enough to warrant an article. As such, in my personal opinion it should be made a redirect/merged, most likely with folk metal. This is also my opinion simply given my experience of heavy metal music in general.

However, I'm not moving for that, not now anyway, because I recognise that the article may be worthwhile and salvagable despite my current-held view. So here's a request for folks who genuinely think this article should exist: find some more sources. No, that doesn't mean just go on allmusic and find a bunch of reviews mentioning it. I mean more sources, ideally published ones, that acknowledge the genre (as opposed to simply using the term. Some places with use the term "pirate metal", it doesn't mean they're genuinely putting it forward as a genre).

A quick rundown of the sources: ruling out ones that are either broken links or not reliable sources, we have two of allmusic's journalists using the term, and Metal Observer, which may or may not be a RS, I'm not certain. 2 journalists and an iffy webzine isn't anywhere near enough. Prophaniti (talk) 14:41, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Imo, delete it because it's a stupid term that has almost nothing to qualify it as a real genre. The only band that has played a style that hasn't been easily classified under another genre is Bathory. At best you could call them heavy metal, occasionally almost folk. When bands start playing in their style, I'll start using viking metal. PEiP (talk) 06:43, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually, there are other reliable sources... the term appears to be used by Rockdetector as well as shown here, here and here, amongst many others on the List of Viking metal bands page. Rockdetector is a pretty decent reliable source for music articles like this, owing to the content of the site being published by independent third party sources (in the case, Cherry Red Books), as shown here. It seems unlikely that further print sources like magazines could not also be found. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:52, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and try looking for references using a Google Books search, as here. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:57, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Let's get one thing straight.

A genre or a sub-genre of music is one that gives a band certain characteristics. For example, the term "Melo-Death," is used to describe bands such as Amon Amarth, with the 'deep, growling’ vocals, double-bass pedal, lower-toned guitars, yet still with melodies. That has absolutely nothing to do with the lyrical theme of Vikings. "Viking Metal." should not exist as a genre because it does not properly describe a band's sound. If you call Tyr and Unleashed both Viking Metal bands, you are incorrect, because they're both of completely different sounds, even though they may entail some of the same lyrical themes.

If a band entails the 'trade-mark' instruments of a "Viking Metal" band which apparently are "Nordic instruments and keyboards" (the emphasis on keyboards is entirely inaccurate, since half of the bands labelled as 'Viking Metal" don't even entail them), then they should properly be labelled as a Folk Metal band.

"Viking Metal" is an accurate term, because musical units are not labelled based on their lyrical content or theme. If it was so, Gojira would be Environmental Metal, Mastodon would be Moby Dick Metal, Korpiklaani would be Forest Metal, and so on.

Thus, because it does not adequately describe a band's sound, only the lyrical content, it does not hold enough merit to stand on its own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.23.143.6 (talk) 23:11, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion, but was there really any need to type any of that, given that you cite no sources whatsoever? Blackmetalbaz (talk) 20:01, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

And that there are also a ton of sources proving the existence of various bands as Viking metal. Richard BB 20:33, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

It's common knowledge. Just because they say it does not mean they are right, themselves. Look at the run-down of discographies by most 'Viking Metal' classed bands. They are all dubbed by their own genre. For example, you hear a Folk Metal band, you deduce on your own that it is indeed a Folk Metal band, without having to research relentlessly to find out, splitting hairs, that it's a Pro-Merriment Folk Metal band.

No two Viking Metal bands sound exactly alike. Amon Amarth, Tyr, and Ensiferum, all different. Blackened Folk Metal bands, like Kroda, Falkenbach, or Spectral, they're all in their own genre, while they may still contain a Viking lyrical theme, but that does not mean they sound anything like Amon Amarth, who are much more Melodic Death Metal. Thus, the Viking Metal label cannot accurately describe all of these bands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.16.6.67 (talk) 20:58, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Saying something is "common knowledge" is not really helpful for Wikipedia purposes. Please read WP:V and WP:RS... round here we are interested in verifiability, not your personal "truth". Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:35, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

When asked to comment on the band's genre, vocalist Johan Hegg remarked:

“ We play death metal. We write about vikings so, therefore, some refer us to viking metal, but I have no idea what that is. I can't imagine the viking’s veer into metal at all except on the swords and stuff. And musically, I guess they only played these strange lip instruments and some bongos or whatever."

I've never heard anything better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.23.208.74 (talk) 18:17, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

POV

I've applied the POV template, mainly because of this articles description of Enslaves being almost an advertisment.

Intro makes no sense

The intro to this article states that Viking metal is a "lyrical theme" characterized by, among other things, its fast pace and keyboard-rich sound. Obviously this is ridiculous and makes no sense. I'm not going to change it because I have no desire to get into an edit war with scene purists who think all their opinions are facts (been down that road before... oh lordy), but if we HAVE to include this assertion that Viking metal is not a subgenre, surely that can be conveyed in a way that makes sense. MrBook (talk) 15:33, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. That is ridiculous. Besides that, Viking metal is a real subgenre of music. It definitely overlaps with folk metal, but it has specific elements and a sound. Navnløs (talk) 16:26, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Folk metal

The addition of folk metal as a origin is continuously reverted from the infobox, even though About.com clearly indicates that the two are related: [4].--¿3family6 _contribs 12:50, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Folk metal didn't even exist at the time viking metal was first time performed. First viking metal without the combination of any other genre was the year 1990 when bathory put out an album named hammerheart. First folk metal without the combination of any other genre was 3 years after that in skyclad's album called jonah's ark. Besides, viking metal does not have elements of the folk music that you can hear in folk metal, viking metal uses elements of nordic folk music which is different then the "normal" folk. 93.138.114.108 (talk) 23:24, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I realize that now, after burning my brain out half a day in research and updating the article. If anything, Viking metal inspired folk-metal, and now Viking metal is considered a type of folk-metal. The same thing happened with symphonic black metal setting the stage for symphonic metal, which symphonic black metal is now considered a subgenre of. Very confusing.--¿3family6 _contribs 00:20, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Both are independent. Folk Metal comes from Skyclad, Viking Metal comes from Bathory and Enslaved; Cruachan (Folk/Pagan Metal) was also inspired by bands like Bathory as well as by Skyclad and a Folk Rock band called Horslips (reference). And I would like to see references for “symphonic black metal setting the stage for symphonic metal” (interviews with the members, they should know best what inspired them); I know Nightwish members played in some Viking band called Darkwoods My Betrothed first, but that doesn’t mean Nightwish was inspired by Viking Metal. And I doubt Therion’s stylistic change was inspired by bands like Emperor either. --217/83 06:39, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't know, you know more about it than I do.--¿3family6 _contribs 13:30, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, I don’t really know about Symphonic Metal. According to Beethoven in America, “Blackmore’s Rainbow, for instance, has been considered hard rock, heavy metal, and at times symphonic metal”, and this is a band obviously even older than Venom. And Within Temptation played Gothic Metal (which has its roots in Black, Death and Doom Metal as well as in Gothic Rock) in the beginning, then turned to Symphonic Metal; so you have a stylistic change here. I mentioned Nightwish’s roots in extreme Metal (I think one member also played in Impaled Nazarene), but that doesn’t say anything about the musical roots; according to Black Sabbath and the Rise of Heavy Metal Music, the band has “sought to build on the pseudo-orchestral work of Black Sabbath and Judas Priest by developing a style that may be termed ‘symphonic metal’”, and the band’s official biography states that the band had a “background in mood music”, which the German press didn’t know when labelling Oceanborn as “melodic power metal with awe-inspiring female opera vocals, or simply regarded it as a masterpiece that redefined heavy metal as it was known”. The biography also states that “[a]long with Therion’s Theli, the album came to be known as one of the cornerstones of the emerging genre of symphonic metal” (for Therion’s influences, see the official biography and this interview with Johnsson, this is somehow interesting, too). --217/83 09:37, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

That's what's wrong with wikipedia, nobody researches anymore, everybody puts the first thing they find, by the way great job. The article is starting to grow, last month I looked at it and it was tiny, many users wanted it deleted, but now it's decent. Keep up searching, I'll do the same thing. It can get a lot better. 93.138.114.108 (talk) 10:34, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

You should take a look at the two extensive sources I found, the book by David W. Marshall and the thesis paper by Aaron Patrick Mulvany. Those are a gold mine, there is so much more in those that I didn't put into the article. I'm so glad I found those two sources, and there may be more like them.--¿3family6 _contribs 13:19, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Here is a good source, I haven't had a chance to look at it, but it looks a like a vast treasure trove of information (and no, I didn't realize that metaphor was very fitting to pillaging Vikings until after I though of it!)--¿3family6 _contribs 13:54, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Please explain how this master's thesis of all things passes WP:RS? That strikes me as total nonsense. I've seen this one cited somewhere else recently, hence my familiarity with it. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 14:00, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

It doesn’t surprise me that you write “total nonsense” although I tried to explain that to you. And I know what other article you mean by “somewhere else” since I was involved. --217/83 06:39, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, I wasn't aware that Masters theses generally aren't reliable, but apparently they are. Well, that's great, after I put in all those hours of work I find that one of my sources is probably not reliable. I'll run a citation index check on the one used in the article and the one listed above.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:00, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Okay, results were disappointing. With Aaron Patrick Mulvany's article, all I found was an archived discussion that listed his work as a recommended source for a college course. Not exactly substantial academic influence, but better than nothing. With the Lorin Renodeyn thesis, I don't even know if it is for a masters or a doctorate, but my intuition says it's a masters thesis. I couldn't find anything about this one. But with both of these sources, I don't think we should automatically rule them out, as the heading for the reliable sources guidelines page states: "This page documents an English Wikipedia content guideline. It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." In this case, both of these sources due extensive scholarly research, and the subject of this article is not a hard science, it is a softer subject of popular culture. Using these sources would not be detrimental to this article, and would certainly help improve it.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:38, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeees, I'm aware of WP:IAR, but some of the material you're using from these sources is decidedly controversial... "sea shanty" as a stylistic origin? Come on. I'm prepared to not completely rule them out so long as we're not using them to make claims that essentially aren't backed up elsewhere. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 20:42, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Some of this Viking stuff sounds obviously “Pirate song”-influenced, which means the musicians were influenced by “‘sea shanty‘ as a stylistic origin’” at least for those bands. See Mulvany for that. --217/83 06:39, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

That's fine, I'm sure we can work things out regarding specific claims. Should the sea shanty info be removed completely, or should it just be talked about in the one section?--¿3family6 _contribs 23:07, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Info from Master's thesis

Okay, as debated above, much of the info on this article is from a Master's Thesis. Generally, an Master's thesis is unreliable if not published by a third party source or cited extensively in academic literature. However, there is a bit of ignore all rules here, as this is a music article, not a science one. So what content should be included, and which content shouldn't?--¿3family6 _contribs 20:07, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

According to what I think of how this project misuses the term “reliable” in this context (see my talk page among others for more information), you can guess that I accept this as a reference; I actually used this while editing the Mayhem article, but it wasn’t accepted for the reasons you mentioned. So wait for a third opinion. --217/83 21:47, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Update: Mulvany's thesis is now cited by four journal articles. So that should satisfy reliability concerns. Also, his connection between Viking metal and sea shanties is born out by Keith Fay of Cruachan, as elaborated in the article. I don't know if Fay got that information from Mulvany, or independently. He certainly didn't get it from the Wikipedia article though, as the interview was done about two years before I started editing on here and discovered Mulvany's thesis.--¿3family6 _contribs 15:23, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

The intro.

I have recently re-worked the introduction paragraph of the Viking metal page. I felt the musical style was barely touched in the lead, and could go a bit more in-depth, so i collected and simplified sourced quotes from the 'characteristics' section of that page and reflected them in the opening paragraph. The lead now has a better grip on the music style, while still mentioning that lyrical themes are important to the genre. The article is now more accurate.

However the author of the original lead felt that my lead contradicted his personal opinion of Viking Metal, so he reverted it back to the his paragraph, where he makes it clear that he thinks Viking Metal is based around lyrics, where we have countless sources that say otherwise. Sources that i have used to write my intro. Now we have another one of those edit wars.

If you have a problem with the lead, express it here below before anything is changed, we can discuss it logically without engaging in a pointless edit war. Conclusions based on edit wars always turn out extremely unbalanced and contradictory.122.57.186.150 (talk) 07:04, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, it was not my intention to impose my personal opinion of what Viking metal is on the page. Frankly, I'm not sure exactly what it is beyond a specific cultural movement. My contention was the shift in focus from the lyrical content and other thematic material to the sonic qualities of music, when the sources clearly indicate that the lyrical and thematic material is the most unifying factor in Viking metal while the music is more difficult to pin down. I kept your additions, but shifted the focus in the lead back to the lyrical content. Can you please list the "countless sources" that indicate that the sonic qualities of the genre are more important than the lyrical focus? There are sources in the article that discuss sonic traits of the style, but they are not conclusive, and sometimes even contradictory (for instance, Deena Weinstein notes as frequent use of folk instruments, while Aaron Patrick Mulvany says that Viking metal avoids "non-standard" instrumentation). The one thing that all the sources seem to agree on is that Viking metal is a specific cultural expression and identity that arose from, though is not entirely limited to, extreme metal, particularly black metal, in the Nordic countries and spread from there.--¿3family6 _contribs 15:15, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

You admit that you are not exactly sure what it is beyond a cultural movement, so i suggest that you logically should stop editing pages you know nothing of, no matter what some sources say, especially since their are conflicting sources. Us that actually know what Viking Metal is do so because we have sources that EXPLAIN WHAT IT IS BEYOND A CULTURAL MOVEMENT, sources that have gone further and established a musical style, and writing over the primitive definition of viking-themed metal in the process. So there is no need for you to be confused, yet you cling to sources that are on the same boat as you, as not being entirely sure.

I am going to re-work the intro putting the musical style first, and the themes second, the rest of the page's contents has it in that order, music>lyrics, so the lead logically should too. 122.57.113.31 (talk) 09:19, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

You need to avoid your personal opinion and original research. At WP we include only what is found in reliable sources. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 16:28, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

My opinion is the result of numerous sources, all that have quite solidly established Viking Metal as a music genre, not a lyrical theme. However this 3family6 wishes these didnt exist, he is only interested in moving the goalposts and stretching the definition of the genre, no matter how contradictory it gets, all to suit his own delusion that viking lyrics = viking metal. Which is just not how encyclopedic systems work.

"characterized primarily by a lyrical focus on viking..." must be removed, there are many bands in the Viking Metal band list who rarely, if at all use viking themed lyrics, eg. Ensiferum, Moonsorrow, Skeletonwitch, Trollech etc... replaced 'primarily' with 'commonly'

About Death Metal in the stylistic origin. The key word is origin. Viking Metal was already an established sound (Bathory) before later Death Metal involvement. Viking metal did not originate with Death Metal Thats like me saying that Power metal came from Symphonic metal just because they commonly cross over. Standard original Viking Metal's origins are in nordic folk and black metal. Thats it.

This all has nothing to do with personal opinion. 122.57.113.31 (talk) 23:29, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

I included death metal in the origins parameter because of this statement in the article: "The music derives from the also Scandinavian-coined genres of black and death metal." I agree that Amon Amarth and Unleashed came after Bathory. But Bathory itself is often labeled "death metal" (the terms "black" "death" "thrash" and "power" metal tended to overlap quite a bit until the 90s, so it's not that inaccurate a label). Furthermore, Viking metal continued to develop into the mid-1990s, at which point Unleashed and Amon Amarth were at it. The "origins" aren't limited just to Bathory, but other bands considered pioneers of the genre during its development during the 1990s. This is similar to how Immolation and Cannibal Corpse, among others, are considered pioneers of death metal, even though Death had been playing the style for almost five years before those bands formed.--¿3family6 _contribs 04:42, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Provide one source that calls Bathory's Viking albums as "death metal"

Cannibal Corpse and Immolation are pioneers of Death Metal because they were among the first Death Metal bands, not because they were the very first, they took Death's style and evolved it. After Bathory, the only real pioneers of Viking Metal would be Falkenbach, Storm, Enslaved, and to a less extent Emperor, they were rooted in Bathory's style and continuously evolved it, that is how genres evolve, NOT because an entirely different genre uses the same lyrics as another genre. That does NOT automatically make them the same genre.

... I cant believe you still think Amon Amarth and Unleashed are viking metal.... *nuclear facepalm... i guess this is just something i will have to wait until you grow out of.

You also ignored this - "characterized primarily by a lyrical focus on viking..." must be removed, there are many bands in the Viking Metal band list who rarely, if at all use viking themed lyrics, eg. Ensiferum, Moonsorrow, Skeletonwitch, Trollech etc... 'primarily' must be replaced with 'commonly', otherwise you have made hell of a contradictory mess.

I have been kind enough to have you have the lyrics mentioned first, now let me describe the musical style a bit more accurately afterwards, that way we both get what we want.122.57.113.31 (talk) 07:54, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I like the changes, I just cleaned up the grammar. I'm glad that we were finally able to reach a compromise.--¿3family6 _contribs 16:57, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Viking metal/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jacedc (talk · contribs) 18:17, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

This article looks really well-written. I'd be happy to take on this review. Jacedc (talk) 18:17, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Okay, normally what I like to do is fix minor things myself, but often times what ends up happening is I get tired of toggling back and forth between edit mode and preview mode. Additionally, some things that I would consider minor have turned out to need some clarification in the past, so don't be surprised if you see minor things in my review.

Lead section

• Some common traits include a slow paced and heavy riffing style hyphen needed at "slow-paced".
• a frequent reliance on folk instrumentation, and, often, the use of keyboards no comma needed after "and" nor "often".
• Though artists such as Led Zeppelin, Yngwie Malmsteen, Heavy Load, and Manowar had previously dealt with Viking themes not sure "had" is needed at "had previously".
• which launched a renewed interest in the Viking age among heavy metal musicians. When Viking Age was linked to, the "A" in "Age" was capitalized, whereas it's not in this sentence.
• broadening the style from its primarily black metal origin. incomplete comparison. "Broadening" is the modifier here, but to what extent was it broadened? Any examples? Grammatically, a "to" is needed following a "from" comparison.

(Note: Unless the former death metal reference is the other part of the comparison, in which case adding a to would be unnecessary.)

That's it for the lead. Other sections to come. Jacedc (talk) 18:31, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

 Done User:Jacedc (talk) 20:37, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

§ Sonic traits

• which the site describes as "noisy, chaotic, and often augmented by sorrowful keyboard melodies". the period coincides with the end of the quote, so I'd put it inside the closing quotation mark per WP:MOSLQ.
• Cosmo Lee, writing for Stylus personal preference, but I'd change it to Cosmo Lee of Stylus, sounds better and is also simpler. That's up to you though.
• Also, according to Weinstein no comma needed after "Also"
• For the vocals, Viking metal incorporates I would drop "the"
• screams and growls drop "screams", add the full link of death growl? I think using both words is a bit redundant. I could be wrong though.
• because the definition - apart from certain elements like anthem-like choruses - is not based entirely the first and third hyphens here should be replaced with an mdash (—). Even though it's a quote, basic corrections are allowed.
• considers Viking metal, and the closely related style pagan metal hyphen at "closely-related"
• The term ‘Viking Metal’ those fancy single-quotes should be replaced with the standardized ' Also, I would go ahead and de-capitalize "metal" here.
• Black Metal and what one might justifiably term black metal isn't capitalized. Again, even though it's a quote, basic corrections are permissible.

This article looks great so far. Very educational. More sections to follow. :) Jacedc (talk) 18:52, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Also, let me know if these corrections seem very minor. If you'd rather me just go through and copyedit myself I can do that, too, but normally these things spawn discussion. It all depends on the editor, so just let me know. Jacedc (talk) 18:56, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

This section is  Done User:Jacedc (talk) 20:45, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

§ Thematic and lyrical focus

• Web site design → website design
• While many bands rely on Viking-related visuals or other ancestral images to aid their music production, others do not. I'm not sure that they use such imagery to aid their music production, per se, no moreso than to aid their band's image or disc thematic. I wouldn't say music production here, though. I understand "production" can imply the entire product, as in a play, but usually it just means musical output when dealing with music. Just my input on it, though.
• The entire Catherine Hoad paragraph could be cited just once, right? No intermediate sources and I'm pretty sure it's clear that all of the following information could be attributed to the same source (currently citation 20).
• "Reawakening Pride Once Lost": Indigeneity and European Folk Metal → "'Reawakening Pride Once Lost': Indigeneity and European Folk Metal" (for consistency)
• " [...] and frequently the kind of music composed". again, period coincides with the end of the quoted sentence, so it should go inside the closing quotation mark.
• identify first with local roots - for instance, Moonsorrow with Finland or Einherjer with Norway - and perhaps a northern European identity second. mdashes (—) should go in place of the hyphens.
• " [...] favored by many Black and Death Metal bands [...]" I would de-capitalize Black and Death Metal here.
• bands began turning away from Satan as the primary opposition to Christianity I would replace Satan with Satanism here.

The above are  Done User:Jacedc (talk) 20:56, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

• Hoad notes considers Viking metal both pre-Christian and post-apocalyptic - it looks to a pre-Christian past and imagines a post-Christian future. "Hoad notes considers" don't know what that's supposed to mean, probably a typo or a computational error on my part (just let me know), also the hyphen following "post-apocalyptic" needs to be replaced with an mdash (the one after, not the one between "post" and "apocalyptic").

 Done Done, this was a typo.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 05:47, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• "it is fitting that Pagan metal began with Viking metal, given that the Vikings were Europe's last Pagans, converted slowly and with reluctance to Christianity." something I'm noticing a lot, capitalization should be consistent even in quotes. Minor corrections are allowed, as I've stated before. ("Pagan", "Black Metal", "Death Metal", "Viking Metal", etc.)
• Irina-Maria Manea explains that [...] the quote that follows this sentence contains links to articles. Should be removed per WP:LINKSTYLE.

 Done User:Jacedc (talk) 20:56, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

§ Influence from sea shanties and popular media

• The first quote contains a link.
• I believe (and think its better) that ellipses which are used to indicate an omission should have spaces on both sides. I've even seen them used with square brackets [...] That'd probably be better than no space at all because it looks like an aposiopesis otherwise.
• According to Mulvany, Viking metal draws heavily on sea shanties and media ... this would be a good place to link to sea shanty opposed to the quote
• and is "primarily sung in unison". I don't think the quotation marks are necessary
• As I've pointed out before, make sure that all of the terminal punctuation in terms of quotation marks are correct.

 Done I think they are now. Per the Manual of Style, logical quotation is to be utilized on Wikipedia.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 05:47, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

You would be correct. I found a few cases when I first reviewed the article where it didn't follow that, but AFAIK it's okay now. User:Jacedc (talk) 14:58, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• have been extended - by association - to Vikings —
• Ashby and Schofield agree with Mulvany that musically Viking metal bands comma needed after "musically"
• are called Folk Metal but they don’t really understand what real Folk Music is; capitalization

I'm waiting for you to finish your review before I start making changes. Thank you for taking this on.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:38, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Alright, not a problem. I will probably have more notes later on today. I only made corrections yesterday because I wasn't quite up to reading anything with a critical eye, but now that I know you're waiting on me I'll try to move quicker. :) User:Jacedc (talk) 14:35, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

§ Precursors: 1970s to mid-1980s

• The Swedish band Heavy Load often featured Viking-themed songs I don't think featured is quite the right word here. Maybe "wrote"?
• featured themes of hyper-masculinity, heroic warriors, and Vikings, for example on his 1985 album Marching Out I would put a semi-colon before and a comma after "for example"
• but won a sizeable − and fanatical − following. ndashes (–) are better than hyphens in this case, but for the sake of consistency I would suggest changing these to mdashes (—)
• "in any case, the Manowar version of the Vikings owes as much to Conan the Barbarian as it does to history, saga, or Edda: What matters to Manowar is untamed masculinity, and the Vikings are for them merely the archetypal barbarian males." this quote contains links, as I've mentioned before, these should be removed per WP:LINKSTYLE

§ Viking metal: Late-1980s – present

• The preceding section used the word "to" whereas this uses a dash. I don't care which one is used, but it should be consistent.
• Eduardo Rivadavia of AllMusic describes this as "possibly the first true example" of Viking metal. AllMusic is a duplicate link. Upon further investigation, this tool detected multiple duplicate links that should be fixed.

 Done Done within article prose. I think it's okay to duplicate links across different citations/references, as the reader may be singling out a particular reference without referring to the first instance of the publication.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 05:47, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Right, citations are exempt. I was talking about article links. User:Jacedc (talk) 14:58, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• I came to the personal conclusion that this whole satanic bit was a fake satanic → Satanic
• a hoax created by another hoax - the Christian church mdash needed here
• the very institution they were attempting to attack using satanic lyrics in the first place satanic → Satanic
• And so that satan and hell type of soup satan → Satan
• This whole passage should be capped with quotation marks, because the thumbnail image on the left makes the indentation coincidentally line up with the non-indented paragraph. Some distinction would probably be appropriate here. Or maybe use {{quotation}} instead of using the quotation marks.
• Woops
• The year 1991 saw the formation of the Norwegian group Enslaved a bit wordy. I would suggest simplifying it to "Enslaved, from Norway, formed in 1991 ...
• and traditions of old -- not attacking Christianity by means of its own creation double-hyphen is fine, but since the article will eventually end up using mdashes these should be changed to an mdash for consistency.
• Inspired by Bathory, Enslaved set out to "create Viking metal devoted to retelling Norway's legends and traditions of old -- not attacking Christianity by means of its own creation: Satan". I don't know why a single quote is attributed to two sources.

 Done I think this was a leftover from some edits. Fixed.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 05:47, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• Håvard Ellefsen, also known as Mortiis, was according to Allmusic "an ... Aside from the fact that Allmusic again is linked to, the article should be consistent with whether or not it uses AllMusic or Allmusic.
• Writing for the online music publication AllMusic, again, aside from the duplicate link, AllMusic has already been mentioned several times, so introducing it as an "online music publication" is misplaced if not unnecessary.
• "It's weird to label a band after the lyrical content because, in that case, Iron Maiden is a viking metal band, Black Sabbath is a viking metal band, Led Zeppelin is a viking metal band." Viking should be capitalized

More to come later. User:Jacedc (talk) 16:59, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

§ Spread outside the Nordic countries

• According to Trafford and Pluskowski, practically all Viking metal bands claim Vikings ancestry I think it's supposed to be "Viking ancestry"
• and after its inception in Scandinavia Viking metal spread to areas historically settled by Vikings comma needed after Scandinavia
• Hoad states that Viking imagery may be readily appropriated, the definition of a 'true' Viking is quite rigid true should be in double-quotes since it's not inside a quote.

Alright, the prose has been completely reviewed. User:Jacedc (talk) 18:55, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

• Could the shortened footnotes use ref=harvs? It'd be a lot easier to navigate the sources. A bit of work, but I'd be happy to help if need be. Take a look at xx (album) or Breaking Benjamin as a general guideline. Take note of the author=Anon. and date=n.d.(x) scheme for those references that don't have an author or date specified (where x would be a, b, c, d, etc.) Again, I'd help to do this, but I don't want to just go do it unilaterally. It'd probably be best to do it in a sandbox then move it back over to the article space once done.

(cont'd). Instead of going through each source as is, I would like if I could start a sandbox project in converting all of the references to use {{sfn}}s and ref=harvs. Editors are allowed to use whatever sourcing method they like, so this is only a suggestion and will not prevent the article from passing the review. I just need the go-ahead and I'll do it myself. The reason I'm willing to do it myself is so that I can review each of the sources for reliability as I go. I'm fairly certain everything's okay, but it'll give me a chance to be more thorough while simultaneously making the article better. Feel free to give thoughts on this. User:Jacedc (talk) 18:55, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

I'll let you go ahead and do the conversion, since you are willing to take that on.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 05:47, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Alright, cool. User:Jacedc (talk) 14:58, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• Shouldn't the template parameters which list more than three items use {{flatlist}}? User:Jacedc (talk) 19:25, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what you are referring to here. Could you please elaborate?--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 05:47, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant infobox parameters. For instance, "Sylistic origins", "Typical instruments", etc. I believe these should use {{flatlist}}s, though I could be wrong. User:Jacedc (talk) 14:58, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

 Done Done.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:41, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Source review

• I'm currently unable to find evidence for the reliability of metalforjesus.com I noticed the article describes the author as a journalist, though I can't find anything on the person. There's no about page on the website or any indication of a publisher. It personally looks like a self-made website to me. Clarification on this?

The website Metal for Jesus is a website run and published by Johannes Jonsson. Yes, it is self-published, but qualifies as a reliable source per WP:SPS because: 1) Johannes Jonsson has written for HM, as well as worked for that publication in editorial capacities; 2) he is an active figure in the Nordic Christian metal scene, such as organizing concerts and events, running a Christian metal community, and releasing compilation albums; 3) he headed the creation of The Metal Bible, which is a New Testament that also includes testimonies from numerous heavy metal artists where they discuss their thoughts on God and the Bible; 4) his website and work on the Metal Bible have been discussed in academic publications dealing with Christian metal.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 20:38, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

@3family6: Okay, that's good for me. Thanks for the clarification. Sorry for taking a while to get back on this, but I should have some more comments and/or be able to get more work done here shortly. User:Jacedc (talk) 16:13, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• More to come later. I've started re-configuring the sources here.
• The Deena Weinstein reference points to this book, but I can see the authors are Donna Weston and Andy Bennett. Deena Weinstein and Donna Weston sound similar, I suppose, so is the latter just a pseudonym, or were the authors confused when the source was cited? User:Jacedc (talk) 16:28, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Ahh, hang on a minute. The authors of the book are listed as the editors in the citation. Is Deena Weinstein the author of just a particular passage in the book? User:Jacedc (talk) 16:32, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, the book is an anthology for which Weinstein wrote an article.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Alright, thanks for the clarification! User:Jacedc (talk) 17:33, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• The statement Also according to Weinstein ... is cited to Mulvany 2000, but a ctrl+F in the source shows no results for "Weinstein". This is the second time a source has no mention of Deena Weinstein despite being attributed to her, so I'm assuming there must be a mix up in the way the sources were arranged. Need clarification on this, please. User:Jacedc (talk) 16:41, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

 Done The citation was wrong, fixed now.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

@3family6: Okay, my sincerest apologies for taking so long, but I have finally converted all references to sfns. I've been pretty busy with school since the end of the summer, so that's what made it take so long. At any rate, I've finished the source review, and it all checks out. This is a very good article, and I believe it deserves to pass. Congratulations! User:Jacedc (talk) 00:50, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, you put a lot of work into this!--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 04:18, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

My pleasure! Likewise! :) User:Jacedc (talk) 06:26, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Sutton Hoo helmet

Three minor points about a minor line in the article:

"The album sleeves on works by Viking metal artists are frequently decorated with Viking Age archeological finds: Thor's hammers are especially common, but other artifacts such as Oseberg posts and even the Sutton Hoo helmet have appeared."

The line in the article was added in this edit by @3family6:, and is supported by Trafford & Pluskowski 2007:

"These sleeves, similarly, are often decorated with archaeological finds of the Viking Age: Thor's hammers are favored, but other items, such as the Oseberg posts, or even the Sutton Hoo helmet have also appeared."

First, there's a list of 13 album covers that show the helmet at Sutton Hoo helmet#In popular culture, and it's backed up by a source (link) with images of all of them. Just thought you might want to point to one as an example, or use the additional source. (And if you happen to know of any additional album covers with the helmet, please let me know!) Second, the Viking Age began at the end of the 8th century (793 per this article), while the Sutton Hoo ship-burial dates to the early 7th (perhaps 625) and is Anglo-Saxon rather than Viking. Is there a certain looseness of the term "Viking" as it is used in Viking metal (cf. Trafford & Pluskowski 2007, p. 65: "Frequently [Viking metallers] have read extensively, if uncritically"), and if so is it worth mentioning? Third, the line in the article is a very close paraphrasing of the source. Might be worth rewriting it to make it less derivative. Anyways, minor points about a minor line like I said, and congrats and the new FA status. Cheers, --Usernameunique (talk) 07:23, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Those are great points. As for the first, Rate Your Music is an unreliable source, as it is user generated, but I should look to see if there is a more reliable source that lists the album art. If so, I could put that as a note in the article. As to the second point, I agree, the Sutton Hoo helmet isn't strictly Viking in the sense of the Viking Age. However, I'm not sure if the sources go into that. I'll have to look through them again. The term "Viking" in Viking metal can be loose, depending on who is using the term. Bands like Moonsorrow bring in lithic-era imagery, and Korpiklaani and Turisas deal with Sami culture and shamanism, and yet are considered Viking metal even though the bands themselves don't particularly care for that label. So, the definition of "Viking" in this context is difficult. Lastly, I'll work on amending that prose.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 06:03, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Looks good, thanks for the edits. I disagree, however, that in this context the Rate My Music list is an unreliable source. To borrow your own language from this page, "with both of these sources, I don't think we should automatically rule them out, as the heading for the reliable sources guidelines page states: "This page documents an English Wikipedia content guideline. It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." In this case . . . the subject of this article is not a hard science, it is a softer subject of popular culture. Using these sources would not be detrimental to this article, and would certainly help improve it." Keep in mind the context of the citation: a random aspect of popular culture. A list of album covers featuring a certain helmet is unlikely to be found on jstor. More to the point, the linked cite shows its work; all 13 album covers are depicted there, and each clearly shows a rendering of the Sutton Hoo helmet. This is something not done by Trafford & Pluskowski, and I think the Rate My Music list is thus actually more reliable on this point than Trafford & Pluskowski. Reading the source (the Rate My Music page), do you have any reason to question its assertion? Does it help improve the Wikipedia article ("not be detrimental to this article, and . . . help improve it" in your words)? Personally, I think the respective answers are clearly no, and clearly yes. --Usernameunique (talk) 22:17, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

The Rate Your Music list certainly has good information, I agree. However, it is a user-generated source, which is completely unacceptable. It is true that I think the bar of reliability is more flexible for this subject than it would be with a hard science, but sources still need to be published through an independent party and have some editorial oversight. A Master's thesis does meet both requirements, though the review is not as rigorous as it would be for a PhD, and both Master's and PhD theses are considered to be partly primary sources. Per Wikipedia guidelines, "Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence." Mulvany's thesis does have a very significant influence on metal studies, particularly Viking and pagan metal research. I've seen other Master's theses that have come out in recent years, but I haven't used them because they do not have the influence that Mulvany's thesis did.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 06:03, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

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Associations with neo-völkisch movements

Korn has challenged the statement in the lead "Many scholars view Viking metal and the related black, pagan, and folk metal genres as part of broader modern Pagan and neo-völkisch movements...", arguing that this needs a source. This statement IS sourced, it is asserted in several sections in the article and citations are given to those sources. The lead is intended to summarize. The connection of these mentioned genres to neo-Nazi and racist sub-groups of Odinist and Rodnoverie movements (all of which are neo-völkisch) is mentioned several times, with citations. The lead is summarizing those mentions. The latest statement from User:Korn "A SUPPOSEDLY existing reference in SOME UNNAMED source at SOME point in the page dealing with a single is NOT a citation for a broad-stroke statement about an entire genre." is not a correct summary of the issue or of the article content. The references ARE cited, the citations NAME the sources, and the sources make statements about the genre as a WHOLE. A read of the article will demonstrate this. I will quote the most relevant sections:

"Extreme and obsessive loathing of Christianity had long been the norm for black and death metal bands, but in the 1990s Bathory and many other bands began turning away from Satanism as the primary opposition to Christianity, instead placing their faith in the Vikings and Odin.[98] Many artists claim affiliation to the modern Pagan religion of Heathenry, treating Christianity as a foreign influence that was forcibly imposed, and therefore as a wrong to be righted.[98]

Some members of the Norwegian black metal scene were motivated to take violent action against this influence – for instance, the church burnings by black metal musicians Varg Vikernes, Samoth, Faust, and Jørn Inge Tunsberg, among others.[99] While most bands or individuals did not go that far, an undercurrent of racism, nationalism, and anti-Semitism continues to permeate parts of the black metal scene.[100] Many Viking metal artists, however, including bands such as Enslaved and Einherjer, simply express interest in Vikings and Norse mythology and entirely reject the Satanic inclination of black metal, writing almost exclusively on Norse themes, without any racist or anti-Semitic undertones.[101] Whereas black metal during the 1990s took a militant and destructive stance toward the status quo, Viking metal looked to the past and took a populist, anti-system approach which eschewed violence.[102] Viking metal is both pre-Christian and post-apocalyptic – it looks to a pre-Christian past and imagines a post-Christian future.[103]"

"In Trafford and Pluskowski's opinion, Vikernes' beliefs, which had culminated in the burning of several churches, including the twelfth-century Fantoft Stave Church in Bergen, reveal the confused nature of ideas about Vikings in the Norwegian black metal scene. They note, "His tastes seem originally not for the unmediated medieval itself as for J. R. R. Tolkien: he adopted the name 'Count Grishnackh', based upon an orc in The Lord of the Rings, and named Burzum after a Tolkienian word for 'darkness'."[125] They postulate that only in retrospect did Vikernes "cloak his actions in an Oðinic garb and claim the motivation of an attempt to restore Norse paganism for his church burning".[101] While in prison, Vikernes released the book Vargsmål, which Trafford and Pluskowski call an echoing of the Hávamál, though with "an eye on Mein Kampf".[101] According to Trafford and Pluskowski, "proving both that it is not just the early medieval past to which he looks for inspiration, and that he will use any historical weapon at his disposal to offend Norwegian liberal opinion, it is notable that he has recently added the name Quisling to his own, and is even attempting to claim some sort of kinship to the wartime collaborator".[101]

Vikernes himself has connected the church burnings to an idea of resurgent Viking paganism. The first such burning, that of Fantoft Church on June 6, 1992, was thought by many to be related to Satanism, since the burning occurred on the sixth day of the week, on day six of the sixth month and was thus a reference to the Number of the Beast.[126] Vikernes contends that the date June 6 was really picked because the first recorded Viking raid (upon Lindisfarne) occurred, according to Vikernes, on June 6, 793.[127][c] Quorthon acknowledged that nationalist elements had always been present in the Viking metal scene, and, in the early 1990s, these elements hardened into explicit racism and anti-Semitism, particularly among Heathen adherents.[130] However, by the late 1990s, Viking metal pulled back from the neo-Nazi direction toward which it was headed, once many musicians from the Oslo scene died or were jailed.[130]"

"Catherine Hoad finds the issue of national and racial identity central to Viking metal. For instance, she writes that when Trafford and Pluskowski claim that Manowar could not claim religious or racial identity with the Vikings when the band had a lead singer with the "'less than wholly Scandinavian name of Joey di Maio', [Trafford and Pluskowski] are approaching a more complex and racially-charged issue than their offhandedness would suggest."[151] While Viking imagery may be readily appropriated, according to Hoad the definition of a "true" Viking is quite rigid, a rigidity which non-Nordic, and especially non-White, musicians must contend with.[151] As an example, she cites the Brazilian band Viking Throne, which claims legitimacy through European ancestry and historical references to explorations of South America by Nordic countries,[151] and quotes their front-man, Count Nidhogg: "Some people understand perfectly that it doesn't matter where you live, what's really important is your heritage and ancestry. Even living in a South American country as Brazil we all have European blood."[152] Hoad argues that Viking Throne illustrates the cultural importance of claiming Viking ancestry, a culture that operates on largely geographic lines. In contrast to Viking Throne, she cites the band Slechtvalk, which is well known for its brand of Christian Viking metal, but is rarely criticized as inauthentic by the scene.[153][e] Hoad speculates that the European ethnicity of the band is enough to compensate for its otherwise counter-intuitive music.[153]"

"A third example of the influence of Viking metal on pagan metal is the national socialist black metal band Graveland from Poland, which on its second album, Thousand Swords, released in 1995, featured a variety of folk styles mixed in with the band's black metal sound, and introduced lyrics about Polish history and Slavic gods.[157] Viking metal has also influenced the Russian Rodnoverie movement, particularly the texts of Varg Vikernes, many of which have been translated into Russian.[159] Though some of his readers within Rodnoverie distance themselves from the racism and political statements within Vikernes' work, other followers have embraced racist and National Socialist ideas. [159]"

Those examples above demonstrate the connection with neo-völkisch movements for the GENRE. Additionally, although not discussed in this article, Heathenry as a whole is völkisch in origin. Since it appears that it's specifically the term "neo-völkisch" being used as a summary (which is shorter than saying "neo-Nazi, racist Odinic and Rodnovery movements, and racialized medievalism"), I will mention the term by name from a source already given in the article.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 20:32, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

See this revision, which hopefully will settle the dispute.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 21:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)