Talk:Balkan Wars

Infobox

Can the current 'Balkan Wars' infobox be split into two First and Second Balkan War infoboxes? Right now, it's very confusing to see who's who and who fought who when. NauticaShades 14:31, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Possible sources

Turkey: a modern history Von Erik Jan Zürcher

Turkey: a modern history Von Erik Jan Zürcher Niyazi Bey

The greatest setback in this respect was the series of uprisings that broke out from March 1910 onwards among the Albanians.

http://de.calameo.com/read/00036539097e976daab61 http://books.google.com/books?id=qaC24BFy4JQC&pg=PA104&lpg=PA104&dq=%22The+greatest+setback+in+this+respect+was+the+series+of+uprisings+that+broke+out+from+March+1910+onwards+among+the+Albanians%22&source=bl&ots=xQ_Xqs6Lu9&sig=3BiDVTvziwFzWvq-cgmpVuchIfM&hl=de&ei=ynEYTeXBL4Pzsga1scnfDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22The%20greatest%20setback%20in%20this%20respect%20was%20the%20series%20of%20uprisings%20that%20broke%20out%20from%20March%201910%20onwards%20among%20the%20Albanians%22&f=false

Forum Post

http://www.balkanforum.info/f16/kosovo-zwischen-gross-serbien-albanien-europaeischer-intervention-60085/

In Albanien kam es seit 1910 zu Aufständen. Türkische Strafexpeditionen brachten keine nachhaltige Beruhigung, vielmehr neuen Zündstoff durch tausende Albaner, die nach Montenegro, Griechenland und Italien flohen. Auch die Entsendung einer international zusammengesetzten türkischen Reformkommission blieb wirkungslos

Old History

http://www.archive.org/stream/geschichtedesdr00helmgoog/geschichtedesdr00helmgoog_djvu.txt

, aber unsere Interessen fest im Auge behaltenden Realpolitik". Am 19. November konstatiert der Minister, daß hinsichtlich der Unabhängigkeit Albaniens zwischen Oesterreich-Ungam und Italien volle Eintracht bestehe und daß auch heute noch jene Grundlage für die albanische Politik vorhanden sei, welche seinerzeit der italienische Minister des Aeußem der italienischen Kammer bekanntgegeben hatte

German Sources on wp

See also the german article :de:Osmanisches_Reich

Am Anfang des 20. Jahrhunderts erstarkten wieder die inneren Oppositionskräfte, insbesondere die Bewegung der Jungtürken, die ihren Ausgangspunkt vor allem in Saloniki hatte. 1908 musste angesichts der Bedrohung durch aufständische Truppen die Verfassung wieder in Kraft gesetzt werden.

Note: Attaturk was in that time in Saloniki, and supposedly he met with Eqrem bey Vlora.

more wp

de:Geschichte_des_Kosovo#Zerfall_des_Osmanischen_Reiches_und_Balkankriege

Eine schmale politische Elite der Albaner hatte sich erst seit etwa 1910 mit der Frage befasst, was aus den Albanern werden soll, wenn die osmanische Herrschaft vom Balkan verschwindet. Als die Sieger des ersten Balkankriegs begannen, die eroberten Gebiete aufzuteilen, entschlossen sich deren politische Führer im November 1912 zur Ausrufung des unabhängigen Staates Albanien. An der Deklaration in Vlora waren auch Kosovaren, z.B. Isa Boletini, beteiligt. Die künftigen Grenzen waren völlig unklar und die provisorische Regierung Albaniens hatte keinerlei Macht, erstrebte aber trotzdem die Vereinigung aller albanischen Siedlungsgebiete im albanischen Staat. Kosovo und das nordwestliche Mazedonien fielen jedoch an Serbien, Ioannina und Umgebung an Griechenland. Freilich waren all jene Regionen gemischt besiedelt und die Albaner stellten noch nicht einmal in allen Gebieten eine Mehrheit. Dies galt vor allem für Epirus aber auch für weite Teile des Kosovo, in denen mehrheitlich Serben wohnten. (Vgl. auch Geschichte Albaniens)

on war

http://www.onwar.com/aced/nation/all/albania/falbania1910.htm

The Albanians had assisted the Young Turks of the Ottoman Empire because of a promise that Albania would have autonomy and relief from repressive Turkish taxation. However, once in power, the Young Turks reneged and, instead levied new taxes, outlawed guerrilla groups and nationalist societies, and attempted to extend Constantinople's control over the northern Albanian mountain men. About 8000 Albanians in Kosovo and the northern mountains rebelled in March (or early April) 1910. The uprising soon spread to Korçë to the southeast and into western Macedonia. The Albanian leaders met in Montenegro, adopted a memorandum demanding self-government for Albania, and sent it to the Turkish government, which rejected it. A large Turkish army brutally crushed the uprising in June 1910. Albanian organizations were outlawed, entire regions were disarmed, and Albanian schools and publications were closed down.

Historische Bücherkunde Südosteuropa

Historische Bücherkunde Südosteuropa, Band 3

herausgegeben von Mathias Bernath,Karl Nehrin

http://books.google.com/books?id=4ySbPKMKXcUC&pg=PA454&lpg=PA454&dq=1910+T%C3%BCrk+albania&source=bl&ots=9RZmhPvRf3&sig=Th-rq3vkYOLdkM8wdf2o2xKoZGI&hl=de&ei=gmwYTe3cGYXCswaF9cnqDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=1910%20T%C3%BCrk%20albania&f=false

Serbien war das einzige Balkanland, das den alban. Aufständen von 1910 bis 1911 feindlich gegenüber stand und sogar seine Landsleute in Kosovo aufforderte die türk. Truppen zu unterstützen

Durham M. Edith

Twenty Years Of Balkan Tangle, by Durham M. Edith CHAPTER NINE. ALBANIA http://vargmal.org/dan3458

Albania was suffering very heavily. Every other of the Sultan subject races had its own schools--schools that were, moreover, heavily subsidized from abroad. The Bulgarian schools in particular were surprisingly well equipped. Each school was an active centre of Nationalist propaganda. All the schoolmasters were revolutionary leaders. All were protected by various consulates which insisted on opening new schools and protested when any were interfered with.

Only when it was too late to stop the schools did the Turks perceive their danger. First came the school, then the revolution, then foreign intervention--and another piece of the Turkish' Empire was carved off. This had happened with Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria. The Turks resolved it should not happen in the case of Albania.

Albania was faced by two enemies. Not only the Turk dreaded the uprising of Albania, but Russia had already determined that the Balkan Peninsula was to be Slav and Orthodox. Greece as Orthodox might be tolerated. No one else.

The Turkish Government prohibited the printing and teaching of the Albanian language under most severe penalties. Turkish schools were established for the Moslem Albanians, and every effort made to bring up the children to believe they were Turks. In South Albania, where the Christians belong to the Orthodox Church, the Greeks were encouraged to found schools and work a Greek propaganda. The Turks hoped thus to prevent the rise of a strong national Albanian party.

The Greek Patriarch went so far as to threaten with excommunication any Orthodox Albanian who should use the "accursed language" in church or school. In North Albania, where the whole of the Christians are Catholics, the Austrians, who had been charged by Europe with the duty of protecting the Catholics, established religious schools in which the teaching was in Albanian, and with which the Turkish Government was unable to interfere. The Jesuits, under Austrian protection, established a printing press in Scutari for the printing in Albanian of religious books. But this movement, being strictly Catholic, was confined to the North. It was, moreover, initiated with the intent of winning over the Northern Christians to Austria, and was directed rather to dividing the Christians from the Moslems and to weakening rather than strengthening the sense of Albanian nationality. The results of this we will trace later.

Brittannica

paraphrasing : Young Turks reneged on promised. the uprisings forced the Turks to agree. because of that, the neigbours declared war on Turkey in October 1912. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/12472/Albania/42649/Albanian-nationalism

I hope some of the sources are useful. James Michael DuPont (talk) 11:16, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Capture of Thessaloniki

I think there's an error in the date given for the Greek capture of Thessaloniki. The city was formally surrendered on the feast day of the city's patron, St.Dimitrios, on 26 October OS/8 November N.S., Greek troops occupying it the following day.Mickmct (talk) 16:46, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Infobox rollback

I have rolled back the changes to the infobox made by the anonymous (IP) editor. They appear unhelpful, and indicate that Macedonia was a belligerent, which appears unsourced and inaccurate. Please discuss here if you have an issue with my rollback. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 03:21, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Ethnic cleansing ignored

During these wars there was a massive ethnic cleansing, hundred thousands of refugees, forced conversions, burning of hundreds of towns and villages, the article totally ignores this, why? DragonTiger23 (talk) 20:02, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Every single one of the parties was involved, and pretty much all of the wikipedia articles on the period make that clear, as far as I can see. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.147.148.234 (talk) 16:03, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

secret agreement of expansion (of Russia)

There is no source for the statement that for Russia there was a

'...secret agreement of expansion from its allies France and Britain, as a reward for participating in the upcoming Great War against the Central Powers.'

This needs better support. Muhali (talk) 14:49, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Montenegro

Siege of Scutari was not a part of Serbian campaign but a Montenegrin one, carried out with its ally Serbia. It did not result in Ottoman victory, but was a military victory for Montenegro, later revoked by the Great Powers in negotiations, so it's Status quo ante bellum at least, not Ottoman victory (military defeat and diplomatic stalemate do not add up to a victory). Also, king Nikola I was not a Serbian commander as the table falsely states. I do know that there is a lot of wishful thinking regarding Balkan history, but please do pay attention to the facts sometimes and make corrections where necessary, because it is not even funny anymore. Sideshow Bob 14:20, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

You are trying to put this edit part of the "Serbian wishful thinking" as you so often claim. The user that added that is a Bulgarian, btw. You are free to edit it, you know.--Zoupan 15:08, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

I have not mentioned the ethnicity of the editor at all, just said that personal feelings and POV are often inserted in articles about history, especially in Balkan-related ones. I attempted to edit but was reverted a while ago, so I mentioned the issue here in order not to come across as an edit warrior. Sideshow Bob 07:48, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Austria-Hungary and the adriatic

The article says "Austria-Hungary, struggling for a port on the Adriatic" - how can that be? Venice, Istria and Dalmatia have been Austrian(-Hungarian) since 1815, so I good deal of the Adriatic coast including the important ports of Venice, Triest and Fiume/Rijeka was Austrian(-Hungarian). I can't see how they can have been "struggling for a port on the Adriatic". Perhaps they wanted more ports, or perhaps a port "directly" on the Mediterranean (ie. outside the Adriatic), but like this the sentence does not make much sense for me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.210.72.153 (talk) 15:57, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

What happened with around 2 million Muslims ?

What happened with some 2 million Balkan's Ottoman Muslims of all ethnicities during these wars ?! I mean, I like that huge article on Armenian Genocide, which happened five years later, but here, in an article on such horrendous carnage there is no mention of civilian causalities at all. Significant aspect in all this is that the wast majority of these civilian victims were Muslims (of all ethnicities). I also noticed how one other editor was dismissed with deafening silence when he posted similar question few years ago.--౪ • • • ౪^{• • • 99° ४} 18:57, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

• I agree that the situation with muhajirism should be presented in more detail in this article. I can do this when I have free time. Demo66top (talk) 05:24, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Mistake in entendre:

A part of the Balkan War was a proxy War, there where at least 3 sides.

A) Northen Balkans. B) Iranian derived descendents. C) Meccan derived interference.

There are certain issues and instances within that War, that where not cleared up, including the very, very slow involvement of the French, the germans, the brits, and the United States.

Today, it is thought to have been a proxy War, to remove a changed form of quote Islam unquote, not favorable to Saud, and if not favorable to Saud (Saudi Arabia), then not favorable to the United States, nor in effect, favorable to the United Kingdom.

When you make a statement accorded an islam, you must allways take into consideration at least two islamic sections, that one of Saud, and that one of Iran, and at least one third addicional, that one that is located within Latin America whom overal are descendents from the Middle East through Spain.

To make this even less favorable, Asians view the United States and many an instance in Latin America to be not but an overal dispute/fight between several groups of Arab descendents. Those from Saud, and the meriat instances of Ex Islam now catholic, in South America and the southern United States, including methodist sections, and those from the Iran/Balkan/French/Louisiana-Baptist Belt migratory routes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.37.152.86 (talk) 00:50, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

"Indecisive" Results

I have changed the colours of the rows in the "All Balkan War conflicts" section tables of the battles. These are colour-coded according to which side won them, but for two (Second Battle of Çatalca and Battle of Kresna Gorge) the result column said "Indecisive" and they were coloured green for Bulgaria, so I have changed their colour to the default colour to reflect the result column. I realise that the nature of the results of these battles can be a controversial topic, so if anyone disagrees with me or the rows were coloured that way for a good reason I was unaware of, or if anyone wants to dispute what the result column should say for these battles or something else like that, I have mentioned it on the talk page so that it can be discussed/fixed here. I hope my edits were helpful, please notify me if they weren't. GeorgmentO (talk) 07:25, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 June 2018

Take out Ottoman victory in the beginning results description because the Ottomans did not fight a single battle in that war, while Bulgaria was fighting against the other 4 nations winning and losing in a stretch of 12 battles 141.215.147.148 (talk) 20:51, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

 Not done This article's protection is due to you trying to make the edit you are requesting here. Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:56, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Gregorian vs Julian dates

The handling of these is quite inconsistent throughout the article. Sometimes a "tranlation" is given, sometimes it isn't. I am quite on the fence whether it's better to always include or to never (except for a general explanation) but I think more consistency may improve readability. Also, in many instances the opening brackets lack a space in front of them: "On 29(16) June ...". Is this correct usage? It seems wrong to my eyes. --131.169.89.168 (talk) 09:24, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Identity of Serbian leader in propaganda poster

The caption for this poster (which is plainly period appropriate) describes it as showing Alexander I beating a Bulgarian leader, who drops a representation of Monastir. The peculiarity is that Alexander I was assassinated (and his dynasty overthrown by its arch-rivals) in 1903. Peter I, the beneficiary of the coup of 1903, ruled Serbia during the Balkan Wars. The figure does certainly look like Alexander I, but perhaps it is a Serbian military or civil leader? Alternatively if it is Alexander I then the image presumably dates from before 1903, although what clash over Monastir that would represent during those years I don't know. 156.57.136.144 (talk) 16:12, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Map of the Ottoman Empire in 1900

Just wanted to point out that the map is incorrect, since there was no Iran in 1905. It wasn't until 1935 that Persia officially changed its name to Iran. 13Sundin (talk) 02:25, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Recent addition - death figure

A recent addition was added, citing an article claiming that 100,000 Albanian civilians were killed by Serbian and Montenegrin forces during the Balkan Wars. The article cites two figures, one from Leo Freundlich estimating the death toll at 25,000 and a figure from Pierre Loti, estimating a death toll of 75,000. The author of the article then claims that they derived the figure of 100,000 by adding the two estimates together. The authors interpretation is flawed as one can't derive a total figure by adding two estimates together. For clarity, the text in the article is written as such: En fin de compte, Freundlich estime à 25 000 Albanais tués dans la région du Kosovo146 ! Un rapport d'un docteur de la Croix Rouge affirme que partout en Albanie il y a des massacres sans pitié où les femmes, les enfants et les vieux ne sont pas épargnés et où des villages brûlent tous les jours147. Quant à Pierre Loti, il estime à 70 000 musulmans massacrés148. En reprenant ces deux estimations, nous sommes déjà à 100 000 personnes tuées, hors combats. I have thus removed the text as it is evidently flawed. I have suggested a discussion on the Massacres of Albanians in the Balkan Wars page which will hopefully result in a true figure being determined. ElderZamzam (talk) 07:30, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't think it's flawed, I'm pretty sure I just misinterpreted the source. Yung Doohickey (talk) 04:09, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

There are two serious issues here:

1. The figures aren't backed by wp:RS
2. Those are figures that concern -as stated- the 'Balkan Wars', not representative for the 'First Balkan War' and as such have not place here.Alexikoua (talk) 05:36, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Biased word selections in some sentences

"That made Greece a viable pawn in the Great Powers' chess play. Two great personalities rose in the Greek political arena, Prime Minister Eleftherios Venizelos, the leading mind behind the Greek foreign policy, and Crown Prince, and later King, Konstantinos I, the Major General of the Greek Army." Imao, those sentences do not sound quite encyclopaedic rather literary. 128.106.103.76 (talk) 18:03, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Civilian casualties etc.

The text below has been removed from First Balkan War, but needs to be incorporated to this article since it concerns figures of both 1st&2nd Balkan War time period:

According to contemporary accounts, around 20,000 and 25,000 Albanians in the Kosovo Vilayet were killed or died from hunger and cold by 1913. Is estimated that up to around 100,000 Albanians were killed or died in Albania throughout the war. Additionally, it is estimated that up to or more than 120,000 Albanians were killed either in Kosovo and Macedonia or in all regions occupied by the Serbian army. According to documents from the Serbian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, 281,747 Albanians above the age of six were expelled from Old Serbia from 1912 to 1914. However, the expulsion figures are disputed and scholarly estimates can range from 60,000–300,000 from 1912–13 to almost 300,000 by late 1914.

Alexikoua (talk) 03:27, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Appreciate it, I’ll work on this as soon as I have some time SamuelLion1877 (talk) 02:50, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

And I stand corrected before, I wasn’t aware that the 120,000 (as opposed to 100,000) concerns 1912-14 and not just the first Balkan war SamuelLion1877 (talk) 02:51, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Consider that information of the the 1912-1914 period is more suited here compared to 1st BW. Alexikoua (talk) 21:30, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I tried to put all that information here and it was quickly reverted by user Khiurig SamuelLion1877 (talk) 23:32, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Now that I think about it, the opening to the atrocities section states “the heavy and rapid defeat of the Ottoman army prevented the safe evacuation of muslim civilians, making them a clear target for the invading armies of the Balkan League”, I think this alone clearly implies that the vast majority/almost all of the Ottoman muslim civilian deaths took place during the first Balkan war, or at least duirng the first war and interregnum between the First and second Balkan war SamuelLion1877 (talk) 00:36, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

You can't have the same information here and at First Balkan War, that is WP:CFORK. I do agree with you that it seems most of the Ottoman civilian deaths took part in the First Balkan War. The Second Balkan War did not involve the Ottomans as much. Khirurg (talk) 00:52, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Then we agree, I say the best course of action is to simply leave the articles as they are now, with the atrocities section being on the First Balkan War as it always was before a few days ago SamuelLion1877 (talk) 01:19, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Someone will have to explain me how a section about the atrocities committed during the Balkan Wars shouldn't be mentioned in the article about the Balkan Wars. Pretty delusional, but it becomes clear that the users who are desperately trying to censor this information just don't like its content. The respective articles go deeper into detail about these events, there's no fork here whatsoever. Nishjan (talk) 11:54, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Instead of making ridiculous accusations about "censoring", you would do well to read WP:CFORK, because that is what you are doing. The same material cannot be copy pasted across multiple articles. You should also read WP:STALK and WP:HOUND while you're at it. Khirurg (talk) 16:49, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

It’s so funny that now you’ve (once again) switcherooed back to “no we can’t have them here in this article because it’s a fork!” from saying that the multiple sources that were given were somehow not valid, even though the article was doing well and left unharassed for weeks on end. I don’t know why you reported me again, no rules were broken whatsoever, nor do I have any malicious intent to speak of SamuelLion1877 (talk) 04:43, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Albanian soldiers in FBW

Albanians who fought against the allies of the Balkan Wars in the First Balkan War were conscripts and volunteers of the Ottoman army as Ottoman citizens. It is a mistake to include them separately from the rest of the Ottoman army and it is a bigger mistake to add the Albanian flag to represent them. The Albanian flag was used to declare independence from the Ottoman Empire, it was never used in any context in the Ottoman army.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:46, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Why is it a mistake to add any information about Albanian volunteers for this conflict, yet perfectly alright to leave information about Circassian volunteers who were in the exact same situation as Albanians at the time, subjects of the Ottoman Empire without an independent state? A precedent was set with adding copious amounts of information in the infobox on the Battle of Kosovo page so I do not see why information on Albanian volunteers shouldn't be added into this infobox. For other conflicts involving Albanians pre-independence i.e. Greco-Turkish War (1897), an Albanian flag was used in the infobox. If the issue is solely the flag then I don't see why that just can't be removed. The content is well sourced. ElderZamzam (talk) 22:51, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

If we're going to add Albanians, then we should basically add them as a third party as well, fighting against both other sides (though that would be very impractical because it would throw the entire article off balance and shift attention away from its core topic). There were generally two "groups" of Albanians participating in the Balkan Wars, those that were fighting on their own, for their own territory, and those that were serving in the Ottoman ranks (who, as pointed out by Maleschreiber, should not be separated from the rest of the Ottoman army). Let's not forget that just a month before the First Balkan War the Albanians had defeated the Ottomans in an uprising of their own that demanded political separation from the Ottoman Empire. To say that they were then fighting on the side of the Ottomans just a month after that revolt is major historical revisionism and completely ignores the factual contemporary situation on the ground. Even the sources that are being used to back the inclusion of Albanians in the infobox clearly say that Albanians were not fighting "for a continuation of Turkish rule". Just because they happened to have the same enemy at the time does not warrant putting them in the infobox as fighting on the Ottoman side. You can put Albanians in articles such as Battle of Lumë, but those battles were not at all fought on behalf of the Ottomans, nor under Ottoman command. They were direct battles between Albanian irregulars fighting for their own territory and invading armies. The fact that those armies were fighting against the Ottomans at the same time does not by automation mean that Albanians were fighting on behalf of the Ottomans. The agenda being pushed here is clear, but misciting 3 sources to make a cheap point is definitely not something that belongs on Wikipedia. Uniacademic (talk) 23:53, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

There's a major difference between the Circassians and the Albanians in this case - the Albanians quite literally declared independence from the Ottoman Empire on the 28th of November, 1912. The only cooperation between Albanian and Ottoman forces I can think of during this war was the Siege of Shkodër, but with that being said, that began prior to the Declaration of Independence, when Albanians were still technically citizens of the Ottoman Empire; post-independence, the Ottoman forces and any Albanians defending the city were all trapped within the walls as a result of the siege. Furthermore, some Albanian tribes actually aided the Serbo-Montenegrin side during the siege, having been naively persuaded to support them, so are we now supposed to list Albanian volunteers and irregulars on both sides of the Belligerents section?

I think everyone is forgetting that the Albanians were engaged in constant conflict with the Ottomans for years on end prior to this war. Once they had finally rid themselves of the Ottomans, they were attacked by all of their neighbours. Just because the Slav-Greek coalition was fighting both Albanians (mainly civilians) and Ottomans at the same time does not mean that the Ottomans and Albanians were allied; in fact, their relations at the time were quite the opposite. Many Albanian irregulars and freedom fighters were still targeting Ottoman troops and military instalments/fortifications prior to and during the first month of the onset of the Balkan Wars. Botushali (talk) 23:54, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Albanian armed groups though not under a separate banner provided a valuable force in the Ottoman armies. Several leading Ottoman generals were Albanians. This however can't be reflected in infobox since all those Albanians fought as part of the Ottoman Empire.Alexikoua (talk) 01:08, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Valid points. I agree that adding a third party would turn the infobox into a mess so I agree to leave it as is given the consensus reached. ElderZamzam (talk) 11:16, 20 February 2024 (UTC)