Talk:Marin Barleti

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Untitled[edit]

Perhaps the image is a tad too big. I uploaded it that way because I wanted the letters to be visible, but perhaps I should upload a smaller version and link to the larger one. What do you think? ¬ Dori 22:36, 8 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I don't think the image is too big. Even so, the letters are hardly legible. Andres 06:20, 9 Oct 2003 (UTC)
)Dealt with the problems to my edit.freestylefrappe 00:55, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)

I think you should put him between Albanian writers, as he is in it.wikipedia. I would do it by myself, but I do not know how. Mormegil 3:10, Aug 20, 2006 (GMT)

What is the evidence that Barleti was of "Albanian descent"? A literary man as he was, did he write anything in albanian language? The Wikipedia article on Albanian Literature states that we have some albanian texts from early 14th century. If so, why Barleti did not use that written language? The title of his famous book on Scanderbeg referes to the latter as "Prince of the Epirotes" (the people of Epirus), not the "Prince of Albanians".

The fact that modern Albania honours Barleti as national writer does not make Barleti an Albanian. It is customary to small nations with limited history to claim locally born people as its nationals. Compare this to the attempt of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (or just Macedonia) to claim Alexander the Great.Kentavros (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 21:50, 16 January 2009 (UTC).[reply]

"This proves an Albanian monk who under the latinized name of Marinus Barletius wrote a life of Scanderbeg about the end of the fifteenth century." from Scanderbeg: From Ottoman Captive to Albanian Hero by Harry Hodgkinson, page 53. "Albanian Marin Barleti's account of his great compatriot Scanderbeg's life was published in Rome 1508-10." from A Heroic Tale: Marin Barleti's Scanderbeg between orality and literacy by Minna Skafte Jensen. Also, keep in mind that "Albanian" and "Epirot" were synonymous in the era.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:54, 18 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest reading the whole article by Jensen, since it proves effortlessly that Barleti was an Albanian and answers your questions.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 23:48, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Italian origin? Making up Skanderbeg's correspondence[edit]

This work says that Marin Barleti was probably of Italian origin:

  • Setton, Kenneth (1976—1984), The Papacy and the Levant, 1204-1571, vol. four volumes, American Philosophical Society, p. 73, ISBN 978-0-87169-114-9, ...was a native of Scutari (Shkoder) in Albania, and perhaps of Italian origin. {{citation}}: Check date values in: |year= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

Kenneth Setton was an expert on the history of medieval Europe who received the Haskins Medal of the Medieval Academy of America and John Frederick Lewis Prize of the Philosophical Society for this work.

I propose to add this information about Barleti's possible Italian origin to the text of the article. Anyone objects?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:28, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can I just get this clear? So some American scholar makes a cursory claim (based on what who knows?) that Marin Barleti was "perhaps of Italian origin" and this is supposed to be taken as authoritative? Not the opinion of the people to which Barleti belongs and of whom he speaks, who have carried the history of centuries. Don't you think scholarship from Shkodra need be consulted? This is what happens when foreigners write your history for you; they decide how to tell it and in their terms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.150.48.208 (talk) 03:58, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The same work on the same page explains how Barleti made up spurious correspondence between Ladislas and Skanderbeg. Quote: ... The spurious correspondence of July and August 1443, between Ladislas and Scanderbeg (made up by Barletius, who should assigned it to the year 1444) ...) That is very important information that should be presented to the readers of this article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:47, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. Which book is this?Mondiad (talk) 19:31, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Taking above mentioned in consideration, this article should probably be categorized as: Category:Literary forgeries?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:57, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I would propose the term Venetian rather than Italian, keeping in mind the differences between regions which today form Italy, Venetian language (todays), and the multiethnic nature of the Venice Empire. Even "Latin" would be somehow better (my point of view).Mondiad (talk) 19:31, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Italian origin[edit]

Unresolved
Wait for the others, and stop making "impressive near to gossip magazine" claims. As a starter read Jensen above. There also many monographs about him, try to read one of them before making substantial changes to the article. Aigest (talk) 08:02, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've added this part in the life section, since it deserves to be mentioned in the article.Alexikoua (talk) 12:57, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@Aigest:I red text written by Minna Skafte Jensen (who is not historian but philologist, professor of Greek and Latin). This text is published on internet site of "Miqлsia, Danish-Albanian Association".
As far as I can see, she she didn't deny that Barleti made up spurious correspondence between Vladislav and Skanderbeg, so I will return that part in the text of the article.
Text I added is supported by work written by Kenneth Setton who was an expert on the history of medieval Europe who received the Haskins Medal of the Medieval Academy of America and John Frederick Lewis Prize of the Philosophical Society for this work.
Disputing the reliability of apparently good sources is considered tendentious editing.
Why did you delete text which is sourced with work written by such distinguished expert and why did you refer to his statements as "impressive near to gossip magazine claims"?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:13, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent)That's not a quote from Setton himself and the only thing written by Setton himself is the part of the index(Marinus Barletius, Albanian historian). That being said some other source except for a small part that wasn't even written by Setton by himself should be brought by Antid. (i.e extraordinary claims need extraordinary sources).--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:44, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it is a quote from Setton himself. Please read more carefully (Setton's note on page 72 and 73):
"For the career of Scanderbeg, Barletius is valuable source, but he also should be used with extreme cautious. Quite apart from his constant exaggerations and chronological errors, Barletius (being a good humanist who liked literary speeches and letters) invented the correspondence between between Scanderbeg and Ladislas the Jagiellonian in 1443 (source) He also invented a correspondence between Scanderbeg and Sultan Mehmed II to fit his interpretations of events in 1461—1463 (source). Marinus Barletius (1450?—1512?) was a native of Scutari (Shkoder) in Albania, and perhaps of Italian origin....--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:09, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Antid. Setton doesn't contradict by first saying native of Scutari of perhaps Italian origin and then Marinus Barletius, Albanian historian. That being said exceptional claims like this one need exceptional sources i.e not contradicting statements of one single book. Btw because wikipedia is not a WP:FORUM there's nothing else that I can/will contribute to this discussion unless Antid. finds the sources.-— ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:29, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is no contradiction. Albanian can be of Italian origin because term Albanian can be used as demonym, especially by Americans like Kenneth Setton.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:18, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent)Then why can't Italian be used as demonym and vice-versa? Don't OR i.e please don't bring this up again unless there are sources.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That was quite incivil.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:37, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Here are two additional sources for possible Italian origin of Barleti:

(unindent)The first was written in 1538 i.e your original source is the 1538 work that used the phrase Scodrense and the second isn't written by a historian but by someone whose work focused on Neo-Latin. It's important to use sources that have some kind of authority on the subject(there was a similar discussion recently on Zeibekiko). In the above sentence he says that the Ottoman conquest was consolidated in 1478, which is far from being precise or correct since most of the country had already been conquered long before the fall of the last free city Shkodër, but that doesn't make him unreliable, because he's not a historian dealing with medieval Albania, but a linguist that merely mentioned the incident.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 00:01, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You misinterpretated the source.
Here is a link that shows that the first work is written and published by Cambridge University Press in 1997. Yes it does contain a text translated from the Italian text of 1538 but the quoted text quite obviously belongs to the page xxii which is written by Donald MacGillivray Nicol in 1997. Please find below details of that source presented within citation template taken from the wikipedia article about Donald Nicol:
Donald Nicol was a British Byzantinist, a member of the Royal Irish Academy and a Fellow of the British Academy.
You are right that "It's important to use sources that have some kind of authority on the subject". I believe that works written by Kenneth Setton and Donald Nicol have much more than "some kind of authority on the subject". --Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:08, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
..Barletii Sacerdotis Scodrensis" (dedica di De Obsidioné), "...ut de Scodra mea taceam" (Historia, 1.2, p. 35). Il nome ha fatto pensare ad alcuni che forse erano oriundo di Barletta. Ma il nome suona albanese, Barletius essendo la forma latina di Bardheci ( Bardhetsi, Batlletsi). Non sappiamo né quando nacque, né quando mori....Italiana: selected papers from the proceeedings of the ... annual conference of the American Association of Teachers of Italian Authors American Association of Teachers of Italian. Conference, Rosary College (River Forest, Ill.)Publisher Rosary College, 1988. Italians themselves don't consider him Italian, but Albanian. Anyway for this kind of articles (and claims), published biographies of the persons should be the main sources not just short notes. Aigest (talk) 07:46, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Using "selected papers from the...annual conference of the American Association of Teachers of Italian" to contradict works of Kenneth Setton and Donald Nicol? Please read what ZjarriRrethues wrote above: "It's important to use sources that have some kind of authority on the subject." I couldn't agree more.
  • Did you read that short(?) note number 119 written by Kenneth Setton on pages 72 and 73? I don't think that I have ever seen longer note in my life. It goes on two pages. Printed letters in notes are much smaller than the text of the prose and this note probably contains more text than the whole page of his book. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:39, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A brief mention in a work about Neo-Latin is not considered to have any authority of such issues nor does a brief note that probably wasn't even written by Setton, who would be contradicting his work. That being said stick to scholars, who have extensively dealt with the subject and have some kind of authority on the issue. Btw Setton contradicts the quote you added twice by the Albanian humanist of the next generation Marinus Barletius.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 08:53, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I already explained that "There is no contradiction. Albanian can be of Italian origin because term Albanian can be used as demonym, especially by Americans like Kenneth Setton."--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:23, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)That's your OR, not to mention that he spent most of his life in Italy and not Albania.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 09:33, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@ZjarriRrethues:
  • I already explained that "There is no contradiction. Albanian can be of Italian origin because term Albanian can be used as demonym, especially by Americans like Kenneth Setton." There is no OR in that. Lot of people who are Swiss (Blerim Džemaili) or American (Breanne Benson) or French (Angelin Preljocaj) etc can be of Albanian origin. There is no contradiction?
  • Please don't refer to the Setton's note as brief. Please check the note number 119 on pages 72 and 73. I already explained that it is probably longer than whole book page. Please do not dispute the reliability of apparently good source based on the length of the notes, because someone could see it as tententious editing
  • Here is a link to worldcat which shows that Kenneth Setton is the only author of The Papacy and the Levant, 1204-1571. Please be so kind to stop disputing his authorship of the text of his work. That could be seen as disputing of reliability of apparently good source which can be considered as tendentious editing.
  • Please be so kind not to delete the cited additions of others like you did when you deleted cited addition of User:Alexikoua because someone could see it as another expample of tendentious editing. "removal of statements that are pertinent, sourced reliably, and written in a neutral style constitutes disruption."--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:04, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Antid from your claims that "Albania (state) and Albanians as modern nation (like all other nation-states and modern nations in the world) emerged more than 600 years after Skanderbeg was born.....excessive using the Albania (toponym) can additionaly mislead readers, because it could define several different geographical regions which does not correspond with todays meaning and territory..." to the comment above, there is something not figuring out (apparently you are not Setton type of historian). Do you have any idea how history articles should be written? Aigest (talk) 09:42, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Look Antid&Zjarri, the reason why Setton (and other possible similar works) contradicts on Barleti, is that Barleti wasn't the subject of study for Setton (or Nicol) and that's why he is not in the body of their works but on their footnotes. They merely dedicate a short sentence to him, while the Italians above were actually writing some pages on him, because he was part of the study in that case. I can bring hundreds of sources claiming in short sentences that he was an Albanian, but I am not doing it. I prefer to go after his biographers, the persons who actually made him a subject of interest. What actually do they claim? That is the way to go with articles on biographies. Just for others courtesy I am trying to find articles in English (possibly online) about him, otherwise I will use monographs dedicated to him in Albanian language. There are some works on him in Albanian. just as this one Aigest (talk) 09:07, 4 June 2011 (UTC) P.S. in case you didn't understand why I brought that source is that what experts on Italian language actually claim is that "those (historians) who try to link Barleti (Italian) origin with the city of Barleta based on his surname Barleti, are wrong because that surname Barleti does not come from Italian but from Albanian Bardheci = (Eng) White." That is more relevant than just short sentences (and what you think). Aigest (talk) 09:15, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Barletius had red books in native Albanian language (he knew how to read and write in Albanian so) and had left notes on their existence at that period[edit]

  1. "In the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries a vernacular literature undoubtedly existed; Marin Barleti, in the siege of Shkodra..." link
  2. "..The Shkodra historian of the 15th and 16th centuries, Marin Barleti, speaks of chronicles written in the native language. In his book in Latin «The Siege of Shkodra» he writes: «I have recently got hold of certain annals — fragments rather than annals- which based on the legend, speak about the reconstruction rather than the construction of this city. In them we read in the native language that a certain Roza and his sister were the founders of the city of Shkodra.." link
  3. "Another witness is that of the Albanian scholar Marin BARLETI, who, in De obsidione Scodrensi (i 504), speaks of certain chronicles or annals, written in the vernacular...." link
  4. "..The famous chronicler Marin Barleti confirms the existence of written Albanian texts in his account of the siege of Shkodra when he speaks of native chronicles recounting legends about the founding of the city..." link
  5. "..Another humanist of the fifteenth century who made archaeological notes of interest was Marin Barleti. He was an Albanian and writer of a history of Skenderbeg (the national hero of Albania), in which he included notes on the remains at.." link

That is something interesting and very informative. It should be inserted in the article Aigest (talk) 07:44, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Origin of the Marin Barleti photo?[edit]

Does anyone know the origin of the photo used in the infobox? (File:MarinBarleti.jpg). Is it authentic or an artist rendering? Rereward (talk) 08:19, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source misinterpretation[edit]

Qenim edit warred (diff) to boldly:

  1. misinterpret sources ("Some scholars assert he was an ethnic Italian, while most Albanian scholars believe he was Albanian." → "Most scholars believe he was Albanian, while some scholars say he was an Italian.") Here is what the source says: Marin Barleti (2012). The Siege of Shkodra: Albania's Courageous Stand Against Ottoman Conquest, 1478. David Hosaflook. p. 29. ISBN 978-99956-87-77-9. Some schollars... assume Barleti was such settler from Italy. On the other hand most Albanian scholars assert that Barleti was Albanian in every sense. - Important note: this work is published in Albania, in Tirana, by Onufri Publishing house.
  2. remove referenced assertion about what Cetinje chronicle says about Barleti. His explanation was that sources written by authors who are Slavs are not reliable for such assertion.

Taken in consideration that above edit is clearly based on source misinterpretation and racist arguments it will be undone.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:54, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

First work?[edit]

There are many sources that confirm that "The History of Skanderbeg" was first published in 1480 in Venice and later in the Vatican and Rome. The question is: If it was published in 1480 and "Siege of Scodra" in 1504, it seems to be the first work and not the second? Bes-ARTTalk 16:22, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake, I misread it. This book was actually written by the "Anonymous of Antivari" while Barletti's book was first published in 1504 also in Venice. I will deal with adjustments Bes-ARTTalk 16:38, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not verifying bibliography: a never-ending story[edit]

  • Visitors and editors can read in the article that scholars variously assert that he was of Italian (DuCange, Iorga), Dalmatian (Giovio, Czwittinger, Fabricius), or Albanian (Zeno, Fallmerayer, Jireček) ethnic origin Source: Francesco Pall (1938), Marino Barlezio: uno storico umanista (no page)
  • If we read the sources we find that they don't discuss what Pall (1938) - an WP:OUTDATED source - suggests. Pall (1938) vaguely cites them as reinforcing sources for the claim that Che Barlezio fosse un Italiano, ci monstrano la sua cultura, i suoi sentimenti, cosi comme essi appaiono dagli scritti, specialmente da un passo della Storia di Scanderbeg, dicendo, sebbene per bocca del condottiero Jacopo Piccinino, che i Francesi sono superbi e hanno un odio innato per gli Italiani, dei quali vogliono rendersi padroni per servirsene di giumento. [That Barlezio was an Italian, it is showed to us by his culture, his feelings, as they appear from the writings, especially from a passage in the History of Scanderbeg, saying, although through the words of the condottiere Jacopo Piccinino, that the French are proud and have a innate hatred for the Italians, of whom they want to make themselves masters in order to use them as a mare.] But all that Du Cange writes is that Barleti wrote in Italian and Giovio's entry is not about Marin Barleti. Pall (1938) recognizes in pp.142-143 that Giovio's entry and others (Czwittinger, Fabricius) are not about Barleti.
  • The primary citations used by Pall (1938) shouldn't be cited because they're not correct and because the secondary source (Pall) via which we're citing them is outdated. But Pall's narrative should remain in the article for historical reasons and it should be attributed to Pall. His Italian origin theory about Barleti in 1938 has historical value because it is not a coincidental publication event. As [1] writes: Pall believed that Barleti was not Albanian, but Italian, a view that was naturally rejected by Albanian scholars. The discussion is obviously wrapped up in recent battles over the legitimacy of the Albanian state, and Pall wrote during the period when Mussolini was in the process of involving Albania in his empire.
  • Side comment: A note (1754) by Vasilije Petrović who wrote that Montenegro was Slavic "since the time of Alexander the Great" will be removed.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:44, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Skafte Jensen, Minna (2016). Schwarz Lausten, Pia (ed.). Turban og Tiara. Renæssancehumanisternes syn på Islam og tyrkerne. Vandkunsten. ISBN 9788776953751.

Albanian[edit]

How is it possible that the most important Albanian historian, at least from the perspective of our history, is not identified as such in the wikipedia article? Marin is an Albanian name. He wrote about the siege of his own city and the history of our national hero. There's exactly zero evidence that he's not Albanian. Until that is provided, which it won't, he should be identified as Albanian. 140.147.2.1 (talk) 16:22, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Inscribed in his own book, The History of the Life and Deeds of Scanderbeg, the Prince of Epirus, it says at the beginning of preface and the first chapter, respectively, Marini Barletii Scodrensis, which translates to Marin Barleti Shkodran. You could even translate it to Marini, as that's the definite article in Albanian, which is also used for first names. 140.147.2.1 (talk) 16:32, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not even in the latin edition of the History is his name rendered in latin as Marinus Barletius. The entire first edition is scanned and available in the Library of Congress digital repository. 140.147.2.1 (talk) 16:34, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Name[edit]

Hey @Βατο, hope you are well. Could you please share the quote from Hamp regarding the /dh/ > /ll/ shift which occurs in NW Geg? Would be interesting to read. In my opinion, it is worth also mentioning Zamputi's theory, especially since the Leti farefis did exist around Shkodra during this period. And a compound isn't exactly unplausible. What do you think of about this?

According to the Albanian historian Injac Zamputi, Barleti may in fact reflect a compound of the Albanian anthroponyms Bardh and Leti (compare Bargjini, from Bardh Gjini).

Can change it around of course. Lezhjani1444 (talk) 20:58, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Lezhjani1444: To sum up Hamp's paper, he states that he reconstructed in reverse an Albanian form vollë for a northern Indo-European word for "apple", the southern one being the attested mollë, and he verified his reconstruction by visiting northern Albania, where he found that some dialects of North Geg have both forms vollë and vodhë, the latter found as a variant also among Tosks, but the former corresponding exactly to the northern Indo-Eurpean form. Main passages concerning the the fluctuation of ll and dh:
"So I began with *øblu or *ablu, or *a¤b(V)lu-, which I had already arrived at, and reconstructed in reverse, to see what I got. With the last of these, by applying rules for Albanian (which I had partly developed), I reached a modern Geg form vollë. Actually, the modern Tosk form vadhëz was already available in Giordano's dictionary of Arbëresh (italo-Albanian), but I did not know it, or that it was there."
"The fluctuation between [ł] <ll> and ð <dh> is dialectal (almost interpersonal) but lautgesetzlich in North Geg, and they are phonetically very close. Remember that most spoken Albanian has [ʎ] or even [l] for <l>; earlier Albanian had three laterals ł, ľ, ʎ, but no clear l (see Hamp FS Aronson 2002). The fluctuation of ll and dh in North Geg is recognized (inconsistently in a few dictionaries) and well known (by some experts), but badly and naïvely heard (by many ears), naïvely and negligently treated (by phoneticians), never systematically explored by the Fach, left with too little time by the alert (myself included). We therefore do not have exact definition for this (moderately ancient) known fact; it will cost difficult and diligent, yet finite, roaming and listening – human articulation and hearing."
So it is not a recent linguistic innovation as asserted by historian Zamputi. Regarding the suffix, in Italian the name is written as Barlezio, while the actual pronunciation of Latin Barletius is dubious, and the Italian form seems to corroborate a pronunciation /Barletsius/. Therefore, Albanian Barlec is acceptable, furthermore it is widely used in Albanian sources of the 20th century. Concluding, I am reluctant in adding content about linguistics from a non-linguist that specifically contrasts the view of a linguist with arguments based on erroneous linguistic considerations. Your rewording seems more appropriate, however I think we should see also the opinion of other editors, hoping someone will participate. – Βατο (talk) 22:09, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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