Talk:Orpheus

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The question of Orpheus's origin[edit]

Some ancient Greek authors, such as Strabo and Plutarch, write of Orpheus as having Thracian origins (through his father, Oeagrus).[1][2][3] Although these traditional accounts have been uncritically accepted by some historians,[1] they have been put into question by others, since it was only in the mid-/late 5th century that Orpheus acquired Thracian attributes.[4][5] Additionally, as André Boulanger notes, "the most characteristic features of Orphism—consciousness of sin, need of purification and redemption, infernal punishments—have never been found among the Thracians".[1] It has also been observed that Pausanias tells us that on Polygnotus' mural in the Cnidian Lesche at Delphi (ca. 460 BCE) Orpheus was represented as a Greek.[4] This is also the case in early vase paintings, where his appearance is contrasted with that of the Thracian men, whom he enchants with his music.[4] Indeed, the introduction of the worship of the Muses in the times of Archelaos, the genealogies featuring Apollo, Pierus and Methone, Orpheus's tomb in Leibethra and the importance of this gesture as a part of the king’s cultural policy, makes the hypothesis of the Pierian, and so Macedonian, roots of Orpheus, highly probable.[6][7] The testimonies referring to his death, grave and heroic worship, for example early attestations to the existence of a real, or fictitious, gravestone epigram of Orpheus, point most strongly to his Macedonian links.[6] Orpheus's links to Thrace seem to have been sporadic and not "ethnic": he was only "Thracian" when there was a need for him to be and when that part of his portrayal allowed a poet to express a meaning important for themselves and for their audiences.[7] In contrast, when presented as the originator of the Greek musical tradition, he was not viewed as a foreign Thracian, but rather as a Greek Pierian.[7] Jingiby (talk) 17:39, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ a b c Orpheus's Thracian origin, already maintained by Strabo and Plutarch, has been adopted again by E. Rohde (Psyche), by E. Mass (Orpheus), and by P. Perdrizet (Cultes et mythes du Pangée). But A. Boulanger has discerningly observed that “the most characteristic features of Orphism—consciousness of sin, need of purification and redemption, infernal punishments—have never been found among the Thracians”. For more see: Mircea Eliade (2011) History of Religious Ideas, Volume 2: From Gautama Buddha to the Triumph of Christianity, translated by Willard R. Trask, University of Chicago Press, p. 483, ISBN 022602735X.
  2. ^ Anthi Chrysanthou, Defining Orphism: The Beliefs, the ›teletae‹ and the Writings, (2020) Volume 94 of Trends in Classics - Supplementary Volumes, Walter de Gruyter, ISBN 3110678454: Orpheus's place of origin was Thrace and according to most ancient sources he was the son of Oeagrus and muse Kalliope.
  3. ^ Androtion, an Attidographer writing in the fourth century BCE, focused precisely on Orpheus's Thracian origin, and the well-known illiteracy of his people...For more see: Nora Goldschmidt, Barbara Graziosi as ed., (2018) Tombs of the Ancient Poets: Between Literary Reception and Material Culture, Oxford University Press, p. 182, ISBN 0192561030.
  4. ^ a b c Watson, Sarah Burges (2013). "Muses of Lesbos or (Aeschylean) Muses of Pieria? Orpheus' Head on a Fifth-century Hydria". Greek, Roman, and Byzantine Studies. 53 (3): 441–460. ISSN 2159-3159.
  5. ^ Lissarague, François (1993). "«Musica e storia», II, 1994". Fondazione Ugo e Olga Levi (in Italian). p. 273-274.
  6. ^ a b Mojsik, Tomasz (2020). "The "Double Orpheus": between Myth and Cult". Mythos. Rivista di Storia delle Religioni (14). doi:10.4000/mythos.1674. ISSN 1972-2516.
  7. ^ a b c Mojsik, Tomasz (2022). Orpheus in Macedonia: Myth, Cult and Ideology. Bloomsbury Publishing. pp. 93, 137. ISBN 978-1-350-21319-7.

"Father of songs" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

The redirect Father of songs has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 August 11 § Father of songs until a consensus is reached. - car chasm (talk) 00:02, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Father of song" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

The redirect Father of song has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 August 11 § Father of song until a consensus is reached. - car chasm (talk) 00:02, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"The father of songs" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

The redirect The father of songs has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 August 11 § The father of songs until a consensus is reached. - car chasm (talk) 00:02, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"The father of song" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

The redirect The father of song has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 August 11 § The father of song until a consensus is reached. - car chasm (talk) 00:03, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why is Orpheus mortal?[edit]

Orpheus is described as having Apollo and Calliope as parents, but is not a god. At most, he is described as a demigod, but is mainly presented as mortal. I'm just curious about this, and a bit confused, if anyone can explain, please do. Fysri (talk) 17:25, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

His father is usually said to be the Thracian king Oeagrus (see eg. Apollodorus, 1.3.2; Hyginus, Fabulae 14). I know of no source which says his father was Apollo. Paul August ☎ 18:00, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looking further, Pindar, Pythian 4.176–177 does says:
And from Apollo the lyre-player came, the father of songs, much-praised Orpheus.
But having Orpheus "the father of songs" coming "from Apollo the lyre-player" could simply be poetic license, and note that elsewhere (Pindar fr. 128c Race (Threnos 3) 11–12) Pindar also has:
and the son of Oeagrus . . .
Orpheus of the golden lyre . . .
In any case, most (all?) other sources have Orpheus being the son of Oeagrus, see Frazer's [1.3.2 note 2 to Apollodorus 1.3.2:
That Orpheus was a son of Oeagrus by the Muse Calliope is affirmed also by Ap. Rhod., Argon. i.23ff.; Conon 45; Tzetzes, Scholiast on Lycophron 831; the author of Contest 314; Hyginus, Fab. 14; and Scriptores rerum mythicarum Latini. ed. G. H. Bode, i. pp. 26, 90 （First and Second Vatican Mythographers). ... That his father was Oeagrus is mentioned also by Plat. Sym.179d, Diod. 4.25.2, and Clement of Alexandria, Protrept. 7, p. 63, ed. Potter.
Paul August ☎ 15:28, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've altered the phrasing to allow for the possibility that Pindar's intended meaning was not that Apollo was indeed Orpheus's father, and this also seems to be more in line with Gantz, p. 725, who only states that Pindar "appears" to call Orpheus Apollo's son. The main source for the parentage seems to be a scholium on this passage, citing Asclepiades; from the BNJ's translation:
And Asklepiades tells of Hymenaios, Ialemos and Orpheus the sons of Apollo and Kalliope in the sixth book of his Tragoidoumena.
Of this, Gantz, p. 725 states:
Whatever Pindar did mean in this case, Oiagros is clearly one early father, and Asklepiades gives us additional fifth-century authority for Apollo (and Kalliope) as the parents (12F6).
I believe these are the only sources for the Apollo parentage, however, and that all (or essentially all) other sources give him as the son of Oeagrus. – Michael Aurel (talk) 20:36, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So it is possible that he could've been described as a child of Apollo simply because he was good at playing the lyre? Fysri (talk) 21:12, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can't really comment as to why ancient authors may have chosen to make Apollo the father of Orpheus. The scholium mentioned above does state that Ammonius claims that Pindar didn't mean that Apollo was literally Orpheus's father:
But Ammonius, wishing for the story to be consistent…just as…they say that kings are born from Zeus, not because kings are born of Zeus, but because people consider ruling to be from Zeus, in this way he said he was a lyre-player from Apollo; for the god is the leader of the art of kithara-playing.
Gantz, p. 725 also notes that, according to Apollodorus, Oeagrus is the actual father, while Apollo is the "reputed" one. However, on Wikipedia, we just convey what the sources say; it isn't our place to speculate on why they say those things. – Michael Aurel (talk) 22:13, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, now I can have at least a bit of clarity on this. Fysri (talk) 15:47, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for this Michael. Paul August ☎ 22:12, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for taking the time to answer, I really appreciate it. Fysri (talk) 21:12, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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