Talk:Italo-Albanian Catholic Church

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Albanian Catholic Church[edit]

Uh, I accidently moved the talk page of Albanian Catholic Church when I meant to move the actual Albanian Catholic Church to this location. Consequently, this page has no data and should be removed so that the other page can be moved here. Pmadrid 07:14, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved by Chonak' —innotata 16:23, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Italo-Greek Catholic Church → Italo-Albanian Catholic Church — That's the correct name, according to cnewa; the best source I could find regarding this naming issue. This article was moved to Italo-Greek Catholic Church, on 19 April 2007 by User:Miskin, a Greek editor with the summary "per article title in the Catholic Encyclopaedia"; probably thinking for this page, and I couldn't find anything related in that page. Then, this edit followed to match and support the move. Thanks. kedadial 18:50, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support the move. CNEWA is the papal agency. I think the pope and his agency know well what a catholic church is called. The confusion has arised from the fact that catholic Albanians in Italy follow the Byzantine rite (they are uniates), hence the name "Greek". However the Greeks in Italy are not catholics, but orthodox, the Church of Greece has never embraced catholicism since the Great Schism. --Sulmues Let's talk 19:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. It would be fair to call it the Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church, analogous to the other Byzantine-rite churches called "Greek Catholic". -- Chonak (talk) 23:53, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • This move appears to be noncontroversial, so I have completed it. - Chonak (talk) 05:48, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved again?[edit]

The Italian name "Italo-Albanese" appears on the relevant diocesan pages of catholic-hierarchy.org, which copies its information from the Annuario Pontificio (Vatican yearbook). Is there a comparable reliable source to support the Italo-Greek name? If not, there seems to be no justification for the recent move that put the article back under "Italo-Greek Catholic Church". --Chonak (talk) 05:33, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

From an ecclesiastic point of view this church doesn't exist as one jurisdictional body, but it is simply a term used to list three separate and independent entities: the Eparchy of Lungro, the Eparchy of Piana degli Albanesi, and the monastery of Grottaferrata. The first two being populated by Italo-Albanians, the monastery being simply of Byzantine (Greek) Rite. When these three entities are referred to together, they are called "Circoscrizioni Ecclesiastiche Bizantine Cattoliche in Italia" (Byzantine-Catholic Ecclesiastic Bodies in Italy) [1]. So both names are unofficial, "Italo-Albenian" gives more an idea of the most of population it comprises, "Italo-Greek Catholic Church" gives more an idea of the Rite used, and it includes also the monastery of Grottaferrata which is not Italo-Albenian" in roots.A ntv (talk) 10:16, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please note, Byzantine Churches in communion with Rome are designated by two prefixes prior to the word Catholic - the first is of ethnic origin and the latter denotes the rite to distinguish it from the Roman/Latin amongst others (e.g. Syro-Malabar, Maronite, etc). The Italo-Greek Church refers first to the people, the Italians (i.e. Southern Italians, albeit Italians or persons of Hellenic extraction), and Greek because the Byzantine or Greek form of liturgy used in the celebration of the Holy Eucharist amongst other rituals. Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church is more proper than the completely erroneous Italo-Albanian Catholic Church that is used commonly by those not well versed in the subject area. The Ukrainian and Rusyn people of the Byzantine Catholic faith are referred to as Ukrainian Greek Catholics and Ruthenian Greek Catholics, respectively. This is because they are Greek Rite Catholics but are from different ethnic groups and align themselved with counterparts on the Orthodox side. The Italo-Greek Church existed prior to the Albanian population in Italy and the church is erroneous labeled Italo-Albanian because people of Albanian derivation are the majority of followers of this rite as most Italo-Greeks returned to the Greek Orthodox churches in communion Constantinople. Please pardon my grammar ... typing on my Blackberry LongIslander (talk) 22:14, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Chonak - just saw your message. I will do my research so that I can source the name properly. Hope I have not been a nusiance in changing the name prior to sourcing ... my apologies. I am not that active on Wikipedia and should have did my due diligence prior to the change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LongIslander (talk • contribs) 22:18, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

During some reserch by check some various sites for the regular use name:

For the area/ethnic "modifier", we have:

  • Italo-Albanese - 4
  • Italo-Greek-Albanian - 3/if we only count byzcath.org only once: 1
  • Italo-Byzantine - 1

For the "rite"/church identifier, we have:

  • Byzantine Catholics - 3/2
  • Byzantine - 2/1
  • Catholics - 2/1

Unless we go with "Italo-Greek-Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church" for a compromise, it looks like "Italo-Albanese Byzantine Catholic Church" as the article name and listing "Italian (or Italo-)Byzantine-Catholic Church" (seems a more natural translation than "Byzantine-Catholic Ecclesiastic Bodies in Italy" for a Particular Church) as the official name and listing all the rest as other names. Spshu (talk) 17:06, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest you contact Padre Bessarione Kryptoferritis who is a priest and administrator of the Abbey Church at Grottaferrata for official clarification.--68.196.236.115 (talk) 22:59, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

History needs cleanup and sourcing[edit]

The History section needs some rewriting to fix grammar errors, and needs better sourcing. Some of the terminology in the text (e.g., the use of the word "races" suggests that it is derived from some old published source(s), but the lack of ref tags in the text has left the sourcing unclear. I recently marked the CathEnc article as one reference for the section, but that article only documents part of the information in the History section; furthermore, it's a 1913 article, so there may be better sources available now. --Chonak (talk) 14:27, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Catholic Church naming conventions RfC[edit]

There is currently an RfC at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Catholic Church)#RfC: should this page be made a naming convention that may be of interest. Chicbyaccident (talk) 09:50, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 11 February 2018[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. There were two oppose votes, and four support votes (excluding nominator). Even though there was a sort of detailed discussion, consensus was in favour of move. There would be no prejudice, if another move request is filed with logical rational. —usernamekiran(talk) 20:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church → Italo-Albanian Catholic Church – The original name of the church is "Chiesa cattolica Italo-Albanese" which literally translates "Italo-Albanian Catholic Church". The word "Greek" is not present in the original name and it should not be present in the translated name. JoeTBA (talk) 09:40, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

*Support.--Calthinus (talk) 18:31, 11 February 2018 (UTC) Withdrawing my vote as to be honest I don't have enough expertise in this area. I still think my comment about frequency of usage in English ("Italo-Albanian Catholic Church" is the most common and more than the others put together) stands. --Calthinus (talk) 19:22, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. Huh? How do you get that the original name of the church is "Chiesa cattolica Italo-Albanese"/ "Italo-Albanian Catholic Church". When the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia article title is "Italo-Greeks" not "Italo-Albanian". Further more, The Eparchy of Piana degli Albanesi calls the church "Circoscrizioni Ecclesiastiche Bizantine Cattoliche in Italia"/"Byzantine-Catholic Ecclesiastic Bodies in Italy". Also, the name of an article is suppose to be based on WP:COMMONNAME not "original name". Spshu (talk) 20:16, 12 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Yes "BYZANTINE" not "GREEK". "Byzantine" refers to a religious rite, "Greek" refers to a national identity. Your mistake here is that you are using the words "Byzantine" and "Greek" interchangeably. The Arbereshe are Albanian Byzantine Catholics not Greek Byzantine Catholics. "Byzantine" is not synonymous to "Greek". The Byzantine rite is used by most of the Balkan nations but that does not make these nations Greek. The tricky part here is that with nationalism the word "Greek" is used to identify today's modern Greeks. If we call it "Italo-Albanian Greek" that would be highly confusing for one could misunderstand the "Greek" in the title for an ethnicity, which is inaccurate. With that in light the only acceptable term here is "Italo-Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church". The [Greek Byzantine Catholic Church] is a different branch from the [Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church|Italo-Albanian Byzantine Catholic church]. Let us not confuse the readers. JoeTBA (talk) 01:52, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. You may not vote again, JoeTBA (since the nomination is a vote in support). Some of the Catholics in this Church are Greek, it is just now predominately Arbereshe/ Albanian. Secondly, there is a disambiguation hatnote at the top explaining the difference with the Albanian Church and a "name" section. I don't think any one is going to confuse this church with the Greek Church as it has Italo-Albanian in front. Third, you stated your support for this was based on its "original" name, thus my pointing to the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia stating that it is Italo-Greek. As, Bistropha points out below, Greek is appropriate do to its connection to the Byzantine rite as its language. Spshu (talk) 14:26, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment. Actually, I think it will confuse just about anyone who does not know and the majority of casual people think of the "Greek" ethnicity when they hear the word "Greek". Like I said, nobody is against calling it "Italo-Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church", in fact that title still remains as an alias. Converting the "Byzantine" into "Greek" however can become misleading. As you can see and probably know, The [Greek Byzantine Catholic Church] has a page of it's own and if "Byzantine" and "Greek" were synonymous one would have called it "The Greek Catholic Church" or "The Greek Greek Catholic Church" , but no, "Byzantine" is what exclusively points to the religious rite hence both words are used. P.S. I apologize for voting again. JoeTBA (talk) 06:39, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • Comment. Rereading your second vote is that you are suggesting another name "Italo-Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church" from what you originally nominated "Italo-Albanian Catholic Church". Second, there are/may be still those of Greek decent in Italy that are members of this church. What other churches there are doesn't effect what this church's article name would be. "Byzantine" and "Greek" are synonymous and Byzantine is not correct as a rite either, but Greek is so commonly used that there is an article on it at s:Catholic Encyclopedia (1913)/Greek Rites. The article also spells out that the official name of the rite is Constantinople not Byzantine (although it was the city's former name) and that Greek Rite was (and potential currently) commonly used name. The Territorial Abbacy of Saint Mary of Grottaferrata, which is an Ordinariate of this church, is of Greek origins. Arbëreshë, since it refers to Albanians in Italy, would thus be more correct (under your logic) for Italo-Albanian (thus suggesting Arbëreshë-Greek Catholic Church). But accuracy isn't a valid reason, the COMMONNAME is the primary standard for WP. Also at Exarchic Greek Abbey of Saint Mary of Grottaferrata they call their rite "Italo-Byzantine". Spshu (talk) 19:43, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: In this type of ecclesiastical terminology, "Greek-Catholic" does not relate to ethnicity, but to the Byzantine rite. See also, for an example, the Melkite Greek-Catholic Church, which is predominantly Arab in ethnicity and has followed the Byzantine rite in services for several hundred years. It appears with this name in the listing of Eastern churches on the "Catholic Hierarchy" site: [2]. NB: this comment is not in support or opposition to the proposed move, but merely a clarification of terminology. Bistropha (talk) 04:56, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. Thank you, I am aware, but at the same time if you clarified it then I think you know it can be a little confusing for those who don't know, which I think is the majority. I think it is best we avoid the confusion. Besides "Italo-Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church" is already in the article as an alias and sufficient. JoeTBA (talk) 07:13, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as per Catholic-Hierarchy.org (CH) and Catholic Near East Welfare Association (CNEWA). – Βατο (talk) 10:24, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. Catholic Near East Welfare Association also uses The Byzantine Catholic Church in Italy (page 9) for this church. Spshu (talk) 14:26, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment. Yes! As you can see it is called "The Byzantine Catholic Church", not "The Greek Catholic Church". JoeTBA (talk) 06:52, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • Comment. What is your point in repeating only a part of what is there ("Byzantine Catholic Church in Italy") as that doesn't support that CNEWA using only "Italo-Albanian Catholic Church" in support of the proposed article name.
        • Βατο, look again. Catholic-Hiearchy.com actually calls it "Italo-Albanese Catholic Church" not Italo-Albanian Catholic Church. Spshu (talk) 19:43, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Google results: "Italo-Albanian Catholic Church" gets the highest, 2960 results: [[3]], while "Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church" gets 680 results [[4]] and the Byzantine version gets 823 [[5]]. Seems "Italo-Albanian Catholic Church" is most common. --Calthinus (talk) 22:13, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I know many people of such church and I attend their liturgies. The term Greek shall be kept because it is an old way, but common, to identify the liturgical rite (nowadays the more precise term byzantine is used, but till few years ago the only term used was Greek). That is important because the identity of such church is linked to the liturgical rite, not to ethnicity (they are all Italians since 4 centuries ago). In particular the Abbey of Grottaferrata which is part to such church has not an only Albanian origin. A ntv (talk) 09:48, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Italo-Albanian_Catholic_Church&oldid=1195470341"