Talk:Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca

Place in Chicano literature ???

Seriously, this item is weird/irrelevant/self-promotion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.154.198.18 (talk) 18:46, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Low Importance?

I would urge that this article be upgraded from "low importance." Smallchief (talk • contribs) 11:35, 26 March 2010 (UTC) Cabeza de Caca Laca

Cabeca

me.

Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca travel with a ship alot

My guess is an older-fashioned (or Portuguese-style?) spelling with c-cedilla, which used to be more or less interchangeable with z. - Mustafaa 10:02, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In his days, it was spelled "cabeça". That's how he signed his name. --Jerome Potts (talk) 19:51, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Movie

Is there a specific site referring to the movie cabeza de vaca? Chiquitobonito 03:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

"Cabeza de Vaca" at IMDb.com - Prometheusg 06:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca moved to Cabeza de Vaca

Why move the article from the gent's full name to only a part of it? Seems somewhat non-standard to me. –Hajor 02:20, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

it makes sense to revert it if you think necessary but i doubt anybody is going to type Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca. redirection would be fine. Orangetuesday 05:40, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I'm going to move it back; doesn't feel right having the article located at what is merely his (and a bunch of other people's) apellido materno after all. But while I'm at it, I'll make sure all the necessary redirects without diacrits, etc. are in place. Cheers, –Hajor 13:04, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

And also, sometimes, people are lazy and type up just half of the name. sometimes, people have to search him up and was given Cabeza de Vaca like me. tsyoshi 15:00, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm a little concerned about the satement that his birth name was Willis Yankovich. Blg999 (talk) 00:06, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Two dodgy statements removed

If anyone has a source for these statements (from the "trivia" section), please replace them, and include a citation.

• He was the lead leader with the Golden Hind, which is the name of the ship that Sir Francis Drake sailed around the world in.
• In one awful storm off Cuba, the storm lifted one of his ships into a tree. Really...

Actually, that second statement is somewhat correct. Although it was Narváez' ship, not Cabeza de Vaca's, Cabeza de Vaca was in charge at the time. Two ships were lost in that hurricane which also destroyed Trinidad; one ship was found in a wrecked palm tree. I'm not going to add it back in, because I intend to clean this article up after I get through with the Narváez expedition article. Anyone else can feel free to put it in. See Narváez expedition.

Here's a reference: Schneider, Paul (2006). Brutal Journey: the epic story of the first crossing of North America. Henry Holt and Company, pp. 56.

Prometheusg 16:12, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Anyone got any info as to family?

Does anyone know if he had brothers, sisters, wife, kids, what his parents did, anything like that?

His paternal grandfather was Pedro de Vera, a war hero who fought in the Canary Islands and Granada. His father's name was Francisco de Vera. His mother was Doña Tereza Cabeza de Vaca. All I could findPrometheusg 08:46, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

How many men were in the Narváez expedition?

I'm getting tired of edit warring with an anonymous user.

• The Narváez expedition article says "The crew initially numbered about 600."
• Since last year, the Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca article has said "...only survivors of the party of 600 men."
• This external site says "The fleet he took along consisted of[five vessels, in which went about 600 men."
• This anonymous user showed up from nowhere today and made the following series of edits:

(1) From "600" to "70,000"

(2) From "70,000" to "600"

(3) From "600" to "250-300"

• At this point, I reviewed the article history and related articles and reverted it to 600.
• A minute later, he re-reverted it:

(4) From "600" to "250-300".

I'm now reverting it back to 600, on the theory that this person is just entertaining himself. -- Jim Douglas 02:28, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

The expedition left Spain with about 600 people. That includes troops, officers, slaves, sailors, wives, daughters, and servants. Of those, about 450 were actual troops, officers, and slaves. By the time they left Cuba, after desertions, shipwrecks, and a partial replenishment of troops, they numbered 400 men. Prometheusg 09:00, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Survivors

The text reads: "he, and eighty others, were the only survivors of the party of 600 men. The four were enslaved by various Native American tribes." Well, is it four or is it eighty? Kdammers 07:21, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Eighty survived the shipwrecking onto the Texas coast. Over a period of a few years all but four died off. The four survivors made their way across Texas, northern Mexico, and New Mexico (and possibly Arizona) in 1535. I keep meaning to fix this article, finish the Narvàez expedition, and possible start an article on the journey itself. Prometheusg 13:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

When did he traverse the SWUSA?

I can't find any-where in article that says when he was wandering etc., following the Nav. exped. - When was it? Kdammers 07:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

cabeza de vaca and etevanico

```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.186.193.142 (talk) 17:04, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

family

does anyone know who his parents were? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.186.193.142 (talk) 17:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Categorization: Slaves

Sinclair <sup>talk/contribs</sup> 14:26, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Really? Who says that's the "general view"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.143.37.166 (talk) 22:05, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

migrated edit request

{{editsemiprotected}} Please add this bibliography to the Cabeza de Vaca entry:

• MAURA, Juan Francisco. Alvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca: el gran burlador de América. Parnaseo/Lemir. Valencia:Universidad de Valencia, 2008.http://parnaseo.uv.es/lemir/Textos/Maura.pdf
• MAURA, Juan Francisco. Carta de Luis Ramírez a su padre desde el Brasil. Introducción, edición, transcripción y notas, Juan Francisco Maura. Lemir (Departamento de Filología Hispánica de la Universidad de Valencia), <http://parnaseo.uv.es/Lemir/Textos/Ramirez.pdf> 2007.

Thank you Servicio (talk) 09:11, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Copied from the above user's talk page.--Tznkai (talk) 14:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Done. -- Alexf<sup>(talk)</sup> 15:03, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Cultural references - Lord Buckley

I first heard of Cabeza de Vaca through Lord Buckley's comedy routine "The Gasser", a 50's jive talking rendition of the Diaries.

While the language is odd, Buckley is strictly correct on the facts and draws a great sense of mystical wonder from CdV's conversion from Conquistador to Healer. The last lines are drawn from the diaries [I quote from memory]:

  "There is a great power above
   That when used in beauty and honor
   Can and will cause miracles.
   When you use it, it spreads before you like a garden --
   When you do not use it, it recedes from you."

Alvar Nunez Cabeza de Vaca, fifteen-hundred-and-leapin'-ten

If we mention the movie, then The Gasser ought to be linked as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Timbabwe (talk • contribs) 13:54, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, you might have provided some pointers (links), that might've helped. --Jerome Potts (talk) 02:08, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Cabeza de Vaca

Incluyo en la bibliografía el nuevo ensayo histórico sobre Cabeza de Vaca, que Rubén Caba y Eloísa Gómez-Lucena han publicado en Edhasa, Barcelona, 2008 tras recorrer y fijar la ruta de Cabeza de Vaca desde Tampa (Florida) hasta Culiacán (México). Gracias. Leo Fomento —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.146.129.1 (talk) 12:27, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Leo Fomento, 8 February 2009

New Bibliographie about Cabeza de Vaca

{{editsemiprotected}}Please add this bibliography to the Cabeza de Vaca entry:

• CABA, Rubén y GÓMEZ-LUCENA, Eloísa. La odisea de Cabeza de Vaca: Tras los pasos de Álvar Núñez por tierras americanas. Col. Terra Incógnica (Ensayo histórico). Barcelona: Edhasa, 2008. ISBN:978-84-350-2008.
• CABA, Rubén y GÓMEZ-LUCENA, Eloísa. Cabeza de Vaca: El Ulises del Nuevo Mundo". Clío Historia, nº 84, Octubre 2008.

How did he die

There is no reference as to how he died. Also, after he was exonerated regarding the Buenos Aires situation, what became of him? --68.51.72.144 (talk) 03:44, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

List of Native Americans

An editor removed most of the list of tribes noted in the travels. While the list is long, a better solution might be to create an attached page. I'm putting them back in the article.--Parkwells (talk) 14:21, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Cabeza de Vaca / Cabeza la Vaca

Charming as the story is about Cabeza de Vaca's gaining his name from his ancestor's using a cow's head in battle against the Moors etc. etc., could it be perhaps more likely that his mother simply originated from the village of Cabeza la Vaca in today's province of Badajoz? I like a good story, but I like even more a real one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stiivyn (talk • contribs) 05:00, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Interesting. His birth place, Jerez de la Frontera, is not too terribly far from there. Do you want to prove it ? --Jerome Potts (talk) 20:13, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Moved Italians to expedition article

A long list of Italians as part of this expedition, while interesting, is not necessary in this article on Cabeza de Vaca; moved it to the more appropriate Narvaez expedition.Parkwells (talk) 18:03, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Steel Melting

Horseshoes were made of steel and steel melting was not possible until Benjamin Huntsman discovered the crucible melting process in 1740. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel. Ebanobre (talk) 10:43, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

If that's so, how could horseshoes before 1740 be made of steel? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 14:34, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Please Til, read about something before you change it. Steel was only made by hammering pig iron that was obtained in the blast furnace mixing Iron ore with coal. Once obtained it could not be melt again until Benjamin Huntsman discovered the crucible melting process in 1740.--Ebanobre (talk) 10:45, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

I am a Metallurgic engineer and I have changed the page in the place where it said "melted" for "used", because this was technically impossible at that time. I have substituted it for "used" because, horseshoes at that time were done hammering a piece of pig iron to convert it into mild steel. Once converted it could not be melt again (at that time) because the melting point of the mild steel is much higher than the one of the pig iron, and the forges of the time could not reach that temperature even with big bellows. It was only Benjamin Huntsman who discovered the crucible melting process in 1740 the first that could melt mild steel.

According to technical wikipedia rules that is original research because you are contradicting sources based on your own personal expertise and you didn't bring a reliable source, let alone one making claims specifically about the article topic. But according to common sense, I have good faith that what you just said is an essentially correct explanation, so as for me personally, I'm not going to touch that one with a 20 foot pole, and if anyone else wants to quibble about it, it is all on them...! Cheers, Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:30, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree that nothing is lost by changing the wording, and that it seems to be more accurate that way.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:34, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Addition to Lead

The following paragraph was added to the Lead, but it is not supported by content in the article. It is also somewhat confusing to me - is it so unusual that explorers would present their accounts positively in the hopes of getting Crown funding for continued travel? Needs more explanation. I have edited it to improve the English, as I've done to other additions in the article. It would be better for editors to identify which critics, rather than using the term "some critics" when there are issues of criticism or controversy.Parkwells (talk) 13:46, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

"However, some critics argue against this claim and classify him with a group of writers who had motives to present their work in a positive light for the king, who supported such expeditions, and could continue financial assistance for successful ventures."(Herrera, Spencer R. "Chicano Writers." World Literature in Spanish: An Encyclopedia. Ed. Maureen Ihrie and Salvador A. Oropesa. Vol. 1. Santa Barbara, CA: ABC-CLIO, 2011. pp.183-184, Gale Virtual Reference Library. Web. 5 Dec. 2014)

My note: Considering that expeditions were dependent on Crown support, it seems unexceptional that explorers would want to present the best accounts of their efforts. what is "the claim" they are arguing against? Is there more to the criticism and what exactly is it? That he was not sympathetic to the Indians? Also, this statement in the Lead should be derived from a fuller discussion in the article, but this topic does not appear to be discussed. Parkwells (talk) 13:46, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Needs improved sources

While many apparently solid academic sources are listed as references, the article cites chiefly from two websites, neither of which have footnotes, and which appear to be resources for teachers. This is disappointing for a person and topic that has been extensively studied by academics. Perhaps new editors could try to use improved secondary sources with footnotes.Parkwells (talk) 14:59, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

The origin of the Cabeza de Vaca surname is also a legend. Name as such appears much before 1212 especially in the cartularies from the area of Burgos. To have an article also on the mythical and legendary forebear is also stretching it a bit too much. There is no documentary proof to sustain such myth.--Maragm (talk) 07:29, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Mala Cosa

A particular story in the tradition of the Avavares could help explain the fear some of the natives had towards the Spaniards. Various native populations reported the existence of a man who had terrorized the people of a variety of communities. The character had gone into the homes of people, had taken victims and had cut them open, he was called “Mala Cosa”. Described as a bearded and short man, which would appear in some cases dressed as a woman, would enter peoples homes to perform surgical operations cutting pieces of flesh, taking peoples entrails out and throwing them into the fire, he would lacerate peoples arms, or sever limbs, he would then “pass his hand over the separated parts and the arm came together again, healing instantly” (Cabeza de Vaca). The natives mentioned that they had often offered tribute to this figure, often food or drink yet he would not consume it. The fact that Mala Cosa was bearded, as the survivors of the Narvaez Expedition, and although he would terrorize the people of the villages, he also worked in the realm of healing, therefore a clear comparison could be drawn between Mala Cosa and the Europeans and African. The account of Mala Cosa could also help in understanding the respect some natives had for the party of travelers, based not only in their own merits as healers and traders, but also because they fell into pre-established notions in the native’s outlook. In the accounts of Mala Cosa it was said that when he was asked his provenance he would point towards the ground, this on the other hand allowed the Spaniards to utilize Mala Cosa to explain the dynamics of the Christian heaven and hell, associating Mala Cosa with the devil. The account of Mala Cosa also adds to why these travelers became so widely accepted in the area, presenting themselves as the antithesis of this evil creature.

Does any one know more information about Mala Cosa?

Jose-sole (talk) 21:18, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Conquest of the Canary Islands

While reading this article I looked up the years for the Conquest of the Canary Islands. It seems they ended in 1496/1498. I find it hard to believe that an 8 year old (assuming he was born around 1490 as stated) would be involved in this and even if that was the case made Governor? See text from the section discussing his early life:

"He was appointed chamberlain for the house of a noble family in his teen years then participated in the conquest of the Canary Islands where he was appointed a governor.[4]"

Is it possible it was his grandfather Pedro de Vera that this is referring to?

This is from the Wikipedia Page, "Conquest of the Canary Islands":

"b) Guanche resistance and Castilian divisions from the close of 1478 until 1481. This period is defined by aboriginal resistance in the mountainous interior, the lack of men and materials and internal disputes between the invaders. During this stage Juan Rejón was dismissed on the orders of the Catholic Monarchs. His place was taken by Pedro Fernández de Algaba who was subsequently executed by order of the deposed Rejón. The naming of Pedro de Vera as the new governor of the island and the arrest of Juan Rejón put an end to the in-fighting that had continued until 1481." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.101.176.115 (talk) 03:02, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

References

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Statements Regarding Cabeza's Motives Moved to Talk Page

The following wikipedia user statement has been moved to the talk page after viewing the statements contained in the original reference.

"Wikipedia page: Many scholars question if his personal motives may have biased his account. For instance, he hoped the account would add to his prestige in Spain. Due to this, some scholars argue that in order to improve his own standing, he did not report the human rights violations committed by Narvaez against the native peoples before his death. Some academics are puzzled as to why he failed to do so, suggesting that there are some mysteries remaining in regards to his motives for writing The Relation the way that he did. "

In the original article by Andres Resendez the author states that there are only two surviving testimonies of the Narváez expedition. The author also states: "Neither text tells us much about how violently the members of the Pánfilo de Narváez expedition treated the natives of Florida."

Cabeza certainly did relay to the Spanish crown some examples of the deplorable treatment that some of the natives had received at the hands of particular Spanish officers in his account.

Also, one of the purposes of writing his own account of his travels in America was to petition to the King of Spain to both establish a Christian mission in the land and to establish the native peoples in their own land under the governance of Spain.

Therefore I saw it fit to move these unsubstantiated claims off the main page.

Source:

A Scribe (talk) 09:00, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

References

Could someone please explain while the small edits I made today are in a queue for review.

A first for me. Thanks. deisenbe (talk) 22:24, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Narvaez Trip incomplete

Towards the end of the section on the Narvaez expedition (second to the last paragraph) it says:

"Cabeza de Vaca and the three other men reached Mexico City. From there he sailed back to Europe in 1537."

However, you can't sail from Mexico City to anywhere else. There are a couple of lakes, but no river leading to the Gulf of Mexico. The photo of the route in the article also shows the expedition ending in Mexico City. Other maps show the expedition continuing to Veracruz and from there sailing off.

Even if we can't verify that it was Veracruz where he took off, the article ought to say something about him leaving Mexico City and travelling to the coast and then leaving for Spain? Do we have any info on who he sailed with or what ship he sailed on?

Also, with regard to the incompleteness of the trip, some maps show Estevanico turning about at Mexico City and continuing north into Arizona and New Mexico. There's a brief mention of this in the section on Representation in other media. The first paragraph talks about "the Moors Account" - a novel and movie. The description sounds to me as if it refers only to this latter journey by Estevanico. Does it include Cabeza de Vaca's portion of the trip at all - at least from the point the two met? If not it shouldn't be included here at all, but moved to the article on Estevanico. If this movie or novel does cover part of C de V's part of the journey prior to Mexico City, that should be clearer.

That paragraph also makes it seem as if Estevanico's entire expedition was mythical. Was it, or was it just the part about his death. There's a Wikipedia article on Estevanico, which suggests the expedition was real, but that there's some doubt about his death.

If this movie and novel don't feature C de V's trip prior to Mexico at all, it should be deleted. If it does, it should say that and leave the details about E to his article. Ileanadu (talk) 19:19, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Did Cabeza de Vaca really travel to Arizona & New Mexico

In the Narvaez expedition, it says: "Traveling mostly with this small group, Cabeza de Vaca explored what is now the U.S. state of Texas, as well as ... and possibly smaller portions of New Mexico and Arizona."

This is the only mention of C de V travelling to New Mexico and Arizona. The route map certainly doesn't show him anywhere near those areas. Estevanico's expedition may have gone to those states, but that's after they parted ways and it was no longer the Narvaez expedition. What's the basis for including these areas? Is there a source supporting this possibility? Ileanadu (talk) 19:33, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 February 2019

Change ", presumably from the diseases Cabeza de Vaca and his companions unknowingly exposed them to" to ", possibly from diseases carried by Cabeza de Vaca and his companions" or omit the phrase entirely; it is entirely speculative and "unknowingly exposed them to" seems to be motivated more by a concern that readers might suppose that Cabeza de Vaca had brought smallpox-infected blankets with him than one for accurate description. 73.14.62.105 (talk) 05:44, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

 Done Gap9551 (talk) 08:13, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Translation issue

La Relación should be translated as The Narrative, not The Relation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:D400:1530:1999:67FC:52B2:8EE2 (talk) 12:56, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes and no. Actually the book was originally published in English as "The Account" not "The Narrative".'Lironcareto (talk) 09:17, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Children's book by Jeannette Mirsky

Just saying there's an excellent YA novel on Cabeza de Vaca from 1972 by Jeannette Mirsky, "The Gentle Conquistadors." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:CF:5BC4:A864:2991:7C15:D968:2E7D (talk) 08:34, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 September 2019

I would like to add that cabeza de vaca means cow head 69.232.48.220 (talk) 15:54, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: NiciVampireHeart 22:07, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Place of Birth

The writer states: "Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca was born around 1490 in the Castilian town of Jerez de la Frontera, Cádiz." However, Jerez de la Frontera is in Andalusia. This really needs to be corrected urgently. Thanks. ----Asof-ed — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asof-ed (talk • contribs) 19:12, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 September 2020

I am fluent in Spanish and I think I can change some of the translations 69.147.2.246 (talk) 16:21, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Dylsss (talk) 16:54, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 October 2020

--Hahply (talk) 19:30, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

CAN I add some information to the page that I just researched about Cabeza de Vaca . Hahply (talk) 19:30, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

​Until you've made a few more edits, you can request specific changes here on this talk page on the form "Please change X to Y", citing reliable sources. – Thjarkur (talk) 20:16, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 December 2020

2804:14C:E1:9E63:B95F:257F:1A3A:8DF5 (talk) 20:49, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

"O sobrenome mais nobre de Álvar Nuñez era herança de dona Teresa e fora concedido à família dela em 1212, quando um certo Martin Alhaja descobriu uma estreita passagem entre as escarpas rochosas da Serra Nevada e a assinalou com um crânio de uma vaca. Por esta passagem cruzaram os exércitos dos reis de Castela, Aragon e Navarro para vencerem a importante batalha de Navas de Tolosa, em 12 de junho de 1212. Agradecidos, os soberanos concederam ao camponês o título de nobreza que mudaria definitivamente o nome da família."

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Also, please make requests in English if possible. If you need assistance in Portuguese, you can request assistance from users listed at WP:Local Embassy, or visit the Portuguese Wikipedia here. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 20:59, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

References

Pronunciation

(Spanish pronunciation: [ˈalβaɾ ˈnũɲeθ kaˈβeθa ðe ˈβaka] <sup>ⓘ</sup>

The IPA matches neither 16th century pronunciation nor modern Jerez de la Frontera accent nor modern Mexican Spanish language nor Paraguay or Buenos Aires dialects nor the es-PE sound file. It is however the pronunciation (I guess) in a northern Spanish accent. Is there a guideline on IPA for pluricentric languages and moveable subjects? --Error (talk) 12:43, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Geography

The article speaks of his travels across "what is now the American Southwest", but the most notable part of his journey occurred in what is now the South*east*, namely Florida and the other Gulf Coast states. Recommend changing "American Southwest" to "American South", "American Gulf Coast", "American Southeast and Southwest" or something similar. 63.140.96.244 (talk) 20:23, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Is anyone still monitoring this talk page? It's been nearly three months, and this change has neither been made nor rejected.

66.230.109.87 (talk) 04:43, 22 July 2021 (UTC)