Talk:Simone de Beauvoir

On a quote by Beauvoir from "La Force de l'âge".

In order to find an agreement on the modifications related to Beauvoir's statements contested by editor Gzeike: Brief summary of the story, from my point of view, relating to the statements of Beauvoir contained in "La Force de l'âge": I quoted the statement of Beauvoir in which she states that Natalie Sorokin (whom she calls in this work "Lise") was to her a mere friend and not a lover, adding that her parents' denunciation of her was due to resentment against her. Initially, I had incorrectly assumed that "Lisa" was Bianca Lamblin. I proceeded to correct the error, which had been noted by Gzeike, whom I thanked. After that, the latter removed my edit contesting my interpretation of Beauvoir's words (which I had translated into English) claiming that I had "subjectively interpreted" Beauvoir's words. Furthermore, he justified the deletion by stating that "Lise" would not be Natalie Sorokin, or that I could not be sure because I had initially stated that "Lise" was "Bianca". I thought I had solved the question by adding the original text of Beauvoir with the precise sources and adding a text taken from a specialized publication in the footnote, in which it clearly stated that in the "Force de l'âge" Natalie was called "Lise", as I had subsequently argued. The reaction was negative and my contributions were repeatedly removed also because Beauvoir's statements were not considered convincing to Gzeike. I invite Gzeike and anyone who wishes to express their opinion on the matter and to give me constructive suggestions in order to be able to communicate the contents in the most effective way and corresponding to the truth of the facts. NONIS STEFANO (talk) 17:10, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

I might suggest that using homebrew translations is getting perilously close to the edge of WP:OR - particularly when said translation is to further a statement connecting a person identified pseudonymously by the author in the original language to a known identity. Can you find any WP:RS that support your assertions explicitly? Simonm223 (talk) 13:04, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I mentioned it extensively in the last edit before the block. It is a text published by the journal "Recherche féministes" by the scholar Chantal Théry. The title of the essay is "Simone de Beauvoir : Journal de guerre et Lettres à Sartre". I have attached the text in pdf (in French): I have reported 5 pages (from 171 to 175), on page 173 (line 14 starting from above) it clearly says "Nathalie Sorokine (Lise Oblanoff dans la 'Force de l'âge')". I have reported in French the entire sentence in which these words were contained, plus my translation "homebrew" into English. More than that, I don't know what can be done. Keep in mind that this is not a "featured" or "good article", and that, unfortunately, there are still many requests for necessary citations in the article that have not been satisfied, without deletion. I have made, as can be seen from the "history" of the article, many contributions in Beauvoir's article before this unpleasant situation, and I usually do not write any unsourced edits. NONIS STEFANO (talk) 14:10, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Just to know, how long does it usually take to restore temporarily suspended edits awaiting agreement between the parties? In the absence of objections, it would seem reasonable to me that the fruits of my labor should not be made in vain. Otherwise, the attitude of those who unnecessarily obstruct others' work would be rewarded, especially those who have clearly targeted only one editor. NONIS STEFANO (talk) 12:17, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Since the only suggestion to improve my edits was Simonm223's, I comply with it and proceed to replace the citation with another with the same informative content but in English, and publish it. NONIS STEFANO (talk) 05:45, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Abortion

1. "In the 1970s Beauvoir became active in France's women's liberation movement. She wrote and signed the Manifesto of the 343 in 1971, a manifesto that included a list of famous women who claimed to have had an abortion, then illegal in France. Some[who?] argue most of the women had not had abortions, including Beauvoir. Signatories were diverse[clarification needed] as Catherine Deneuve, Delphine Seyrig, and Beauvoir's sister Poupette. In 1974, abortion was legalized in France."

The bolded sentence is unnecessary in a paragraph about the history of B's involvement with the women's lberation movement, and can be deleted without injury to the article. 203.13.3.93 (talk) 23:33, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

2. Within many of the subheading paragraphs, there are a significant amount of quotes that stand alone and have not been worked into te article. I do not feel comfortable integrating these quotes into the text, but this seems to be dissimilar compared to other social theorists and I believe it could improve the clarity and composition of this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sosullivan11 (talk • contribs) 20:43, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree and will be editing this out of the article Sosullivan11 (talk) 18:35, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Sex-gender distinction?

From current article: "The Second Sex, first published in 1949 in French as Le Deuxième Sexe, turns the existentialist mantra that existence precedes essence into a feminist one: "One is not born but becomes a woman" (French: "On ne naît pas femme, on le devient"). With this famous phrase, Beauvoir first articulated what has come to be known as the sex-gender distinction, that is, the distinction between biological sex and the social and historical construction of gender and its attendant stereotypes."

It doesn't seem to me that this quote is endorsing the perspective that sex is one thing, and gender another (after all, she did not write "One is born a female, but one becomes a woman"). The SEP citation offered doesn't directly support that reading either. It's also worth noting that Butler uses this quote to introduce their perspective that there is no difference between sex and gender in Gender Trouble. So, I think the claim about the sex-gender distinction should be omitted or clarified. 2607:4A80:155:114:F4F7:6AD:8937:8F50 (talk) 14:32, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Here's the relevant passage from the citation.

"To counter this kind of biological determinism, feminists have argued that behavioural and psychological differences have social, rather than biological, causes. For instance, Simone de Beauvoir famously claimed that one is not born, but rather becomes a woman, and that “social discrimination produces in women moral and intellectual effects so profound that they appear to be caused by nature” (Beauvoir 1972 [original 1949], 18; for more, see the entry on Simone de Beauvoir). Commonly observed behavioural traits associated with women and men, then, are not caused by anatomy or chromosomes. Rather, they are culturally learned or acquired."

I would say the argument in the Beauvoir article is reasonably supported by the source within context but would concur that additional sources (for or against) are welcome. And I appreciate the reminder I need to get around to reading Gender Trouble. Simonm223 (talk) 14:42, 1 April 2024 (UTC)