Talk:Symbionese Liberation Army

The Bonnot Gang

It may just be my fancy, but I'd like to work in a link to the Bonnot gang, who I think were similar in style to the SLA. They were politicals/revolutionaries who robbed banks, used the technology of the times to advantage (The Bonnot Gang used cars to escape, the SLA manipulated the media), and both were decimated by bloody police shoot-outs. Any comments, am I taking this too far? An An 04:44, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Nix to absurd Bonnot Gang link

You might as well have a link to everyone who has ever been known to wear shoes, since, after all, say what you will about them but the members of the SLA were all known to be shoe-wearers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Miasnikov (talk • contribs) 05:03, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Camilla (and Nancy): armed/unarmed?

Right now the section about the shootout says

One woman came out to surrender and the police shot her in the head.

This doesn't jibe with the page on Camilla Hall, which states that

Camilla died in a shootout (May 17, 1974, 9 000 rounds fired) with police in which five other SLA members were killed. Reportedly, she was shot in the head while charging the police with a pistol.

So which is it? Did the police shoot an unarmed woman who was trying to surrender, or an armed one who was charging them? This is significant, especially given what the police are quoted as saying a few sentences earlier. ("Come on out! The house is on fire! You will not be harmed.")

Note: The page on Nancy Ling Perry adds this, which contradicts the "one woman" part above. Hmph.

As the their hideout burned, Perry and fellow SLA member Camilla Hall exited the back door. Police claimed that Perry came out firing a revolver while Hall fired an automatic pistol. Police shot them both immediately. Perry was shot twicel; one shot hit her right lung, the other shot severing her spine. Hall was shot once in the forehead. Investigators working for her parents claimed that Perry had come walking out of the house intending to surrender.

--Ultra Megatron 02:15, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

There appear to be stories. Impossible from here to know which is correct. Both should probably be included. Justforasecond 18:27, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Why did someone remove the section about the SLA's move to Los Angeles?207.6.175.222 (talk) 00:26, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• * *

There are strong elements of fantasy in this account, primarily the fault of using sources dedicated more to point of view than fact, e.g., Stone's film. To correct them all would require a complete rewrite of the article. I'll confine myself to this one comment and refer others to my own "talk" comments attached to the "Patricia Hearst" article.

The house at 1466 E. 54th Street (where the shootout and fire occurred), like many residences in Southern California, was built on slab with a crawl space beneath it. The six SLA members surrounded by the police and fire departments eventually sought refuge in this space after the house caught fire. But, Nancy Ling Perry was claustrophobic and exited the house through a vent into this space. She had with her the Rossi revolver initially used (by someone -- not necessarily Ling) to shoot Robert Blackburn, and LAPD officers say she fired it at them while she was fleeing the house. Camilla Hall tried to follow her but did not get very far (she was much bigger and could not squeeze through the vent). Ling was the one shot through the lungs, and Hall was the one shot through the head. This account is supported by the radio logs of the Los Angeles Police Department (which clearly relate that Ling was firing the revolver), the official reports of the area search (which pinpoint the location of Ling's body and the Rossi), and the subsequent medicolegal investigation conducted by Dr. Thomas Noguchi (LA county coroner), which established cause of death. The entry wound in Ling's back was occasioned when the first of the slugs that hit her spun her around (she was only about 98 pounds).

The best evidence here is the official reports and logs (the radio logs were made contemporaneous with the battle and hardly could be faked).

Claims the two were killed while trying to surrender are false, and any claim that the SLA was part of a CIA conspiracy is pure fantasy -- Mae Brussell nonsense. The house probably caught fire when police launched a tear-gas canister into it, and it alighted near a can of gasoline that had been shot full of holes (the canisters at the time worked by incendiary action, and the black smoke initially observed is indicative of a petrol-fed ignition). The fire department's battalion chief, Willard Reifke, then had a heated debate with the Officer in Charge at the scene -- the police commander wanted Reifke to put out the fire, even to the point of bringing in aircraft, but Reifke asserted that the tar-paper roof of the structure made this a useless gesture (water or retardant would just bounce off the roof and never get to the base of the flames). Reifke then angrily said, "I'm not sending my men into a burning building full of a bunch of crazy idiots; this is a 'let-burn' situation, and you know it!" That remark was overheard by local residents watching the battle, who told newsmen [Newsweek] that the police had said, "Let it burn." Newsweek reported the "Let it burn" claim and added that its reporters had had to dodge shrapnel after police threw grenades into the house. The reality is that then Asst. Chief of Police Darryl Gates specifically denied the SWAT teams permission to use explosives, and the grenades were the SLA's grenades which detonated as a result of heat from the fire. (Gates's order also is confirmed by the radio logs, and a homemade grenade made from a metal 35mm film can was found on Wolfe's body.)

By then, however, the damage was done -- Patricia Hearst became absolutely convinced that the police were trying to kill her, and that locked her into remaining with the SLA survivors, who had not hesitated to tell her that such was what the police had planned for her all along. See e.g., the remarks by Little and Remiro in Robert Brainard Pearsall's book, The Symbionese Liberation Army.

---

Robert Crim---- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.83.74.242 (talk) 22:46, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Note - Pearsall's book is a compilation of documents and records by and about the SLA, published in 1974.Parkwells (talk) 16:36, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Healthy Skepticism of Hearst

I'm certainly not going to act as an apologist for the SLA but...

In the conditions of captivity section (especially) and in some other places there were some disputable claims regarding Hearst's captivity that were treated as facts. I've tried to `correct those by adding "Hearst claims..." and such.

Also, there were some rather strange remarks that didn't seem to serve any purpose beyond making the SLA seem really, really bad. The line, for example, that claimed DeFreeze was "remorseless" regarding the killings during the Hibernia bank and that he "rationalized" them as "accidents" in the communique. I've heard the communique: While it may be fair to describe the tone as "remorseless" it's certainly dangerously close to editorializing, no? Further, he doesn't exactly "rationalize" them as "accidents." First, "rationalize" like "remorseless" smacks of editorializing. Second, "accidents" implies they didn't mean to shoot them. DeFreeze makes clear that their intent was to shoot the victims and he coldly lays out why.

Finally, it doesn't seem fair to suddenly start using "Tania" for Hearst's name in the discussion of her crimes. While her "Tania" identity has been established earlier in the article, it seems confusing to suddenly start using it for just one section.

I think that covers the edits I made.

Nicks1199 23:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I pretty much agree with your edits, except for the SLA's claim that the conditions of Hearst's captivity were in accordance with the Geneva Conventions; it's not a POV statement for the entry to point out that this claim was untenable.--Galliaz 00:34, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Infobox headers

Three items in the box strike me as problematic: (1) Listing the SLA's "Role" as "Guerilla Warfare," (2) including a listing for "Battles/Wars," and (3) omitting the Hearst kidnapping. I would list the SLA's role as "Armed Political Action," and replace "Battles/Wars" with "Activities," and include the Hearst kidnapping. It is profoundly mistaken to describe the assassination of the two unarmed school administrators as a "battle."--Galliaz 12:14, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Even though my initial query received no response, I still think this is quite a serious problem which mars the entry. Since I can't edit the infobox without breaking it (which I'd rather not do, of course), I'd appreciate a good-faith engagement with the questions I've raised here.--Galliaz 22:07, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

The Hearst kidnapping has been added and the I added a field to the infobox template to make the label an editable field. I used the word "actions" which I think sounds better than "Activities,". As for changing SLA's role from "Guerilla Warfare," to "Armed Political Action,": I don't think "Armed Political Action," goes far enough but I would comprise if you have another term between "Guerilla Warfare," and "Armed Political Action," -- Esemono 01:22, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with you: finding an alternative to "Guerilla Warfare" is pretty difficult. I vote to keep it as it is.--Galliaz 02:12, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Symbiowhat?

Is "symbionese" a proper English adjective to "symbiosis", or was it a freely invented where the proper word is "symbiotic"? Oh, those revolutionaries!
If the latter is true, I think that ought to be mentioned in the article. Maikel 08:36, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Language

"Foster, an African American, was popular on the left and in the black community, and his murder was unanimously viewed as counterproductive; " Dont think this is appropriate, what murder would the author have viewed as productive? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.43.217.25 (talk) 16:57, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed; that language suggests that some murders are productive. I'll remove the whole second part of that sentence ("... and his murder was unanimously viewed as counterproductive; thus, the S.L.A. garnered no support from that event.") The word "unanimously" is misused anyway, unless there was a survey I don't know about. Gingerwiki 21:25, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Some Murders are productive, such as those that remove tyrants from power.--Degen Earthfast (talk) 22:29, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

The Associated Press said that his murder alienated the black community and leftists. The SLA apparently thought their action would help them recruit new members from the community. They were way out of touch.Parkwells (talk) 16:41, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Timehearst.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 19:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Hibernia Bank Robbery

The article linked to the Hibernia National Bank for the Hibernia Bank robbery, but I think this is wrong; HNB was in Lousiana, while the robbery was in San Francisco; I think they're two different banks (with similar names)! I'm going to remove the link for now, unless someone can confirm I'm way off. Laser813 (talk) 05:00, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

No, Laser183, you are right. The Hibernia Bank that was robbed was headquartered in San Francisco. It later merged into Security Pacific National Bank in 1988. See the 79th Annual Report of the California Superintendent of Banks. Interstate banking was not permitted until the Riegle-Neal Act of 1994, so it would not have been possible for it to have been HNB. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pchas (talk • contribs) 19:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Funny that this took over 5 years to fix. Being somewhat familiar with HNB (now part of Capital One), as part of cleaning up that article I just split this bank off as Hibernia Bank (San Francisco); I only ran into this in cleaning up old HNB links. --RBBrittain (talk) 15:14, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

"Recent Trials" section needs correcting

Paragraphs 1 and 6 in the "Recent Trials" section contain contradictory information about Sarah Jane Olson (date of release, length of sentence, etc.)199.89.170.92 (talk) 17:56, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Where's that famous corny statement they used to make?

"Death to the fascist insect that preys upon the life of the people!" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.193.144.79 (talk) 10:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Ideology could be clearer

I'm still scratching my head over what the hell they were about. Presumably Marxist/Anarchist, but black liberationist? The picture of members shows only one person who has obvious African ancestry. There should be more about their alleged purpose. The article has a lot on their activities - fair enough - but it needs to say more about their raison d'etre.--MacRusgail (talk) 13:46, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree. I can't really figure out what they are for or against. All I can see is they like terrorism, random Hindu things, and seven-headed cobras.--Metallurgist (talk) 21:46, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

It's really difficult to figure them out, which is why this doesn't seem so far-fetched:

Wolfe had been slain in the L.A. shoot-out. His family hired Lake Headley-- an ex-police intelligence officer who was chief investigator at Wounded Knee-- to find out what had really happened. He and fellow researchers Donald Freed and Rusty Rhodes concluded that the SLA was part of the CIA's CHAOS program [1]Cleshne (talk) 19:08, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Another thing that should be mentioned under "ideology" is that the "seven principles" symbolized by the 7 headed cobra were in fact directly copied from the "seven principles of Kwanzaa." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.131.200.68 (talk) 03:35, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

There was really no ideology to speak of. Whatever they said was usually just an echo of what other people were saying around Berkeley at the time. "SYMBIONESE LIBERATION ARMY Communiqué No. 1" issued after they killed the school officials in Oakland is one of their more coherent documents. Its written by someone who had been worked up into a paranoid frenzy within the crazy atmosphere of Berkeley at that time. They were convinced that the fascists had targeted the Oakland schools as part of a plan to destroy the revolutionary movement in the Berkeley area. They convinced themselves that there were going to be concentration camps for schoolkids and that police with shotguns were going to be deployed to control the schools. They worked themselves up into a totally crazy state, killed two people and then spent all their time afterward in reactive mode until they were mostly shot to pieces in LA a few months later. 75.20.231.99 (talk) 10:06, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Stone 2004 is throughout the article. Is that a reference?

Why does it say (Stone 2004) throughout the article? If that is a reference towards something, then it should use a proper reference tag. Dream Focus 05:47, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

From the article, "Guerrilla: The Taking of Patty Hearst, directed by Robert Stone, 2004. (Released under the alternate title : Neverland: The Rise and Fall of the Symbionese Liberation Army.)"

Pop Culture: Network (1976) - Valid?

The article states that the SLA is parodied in the film Network by a group in discussed in the film, the (apparently, though I haven't looked into it) fictional Ecumenical Liberation Army. However, in the movie, BOTH are mentioned, the ELA initially being mistaken by one character to be the SLA, whereupon they're corrected that the two are seprate, distinct groups. Due to the factual mention of the SLA, acknowledging their existence, this hardly qualifies as parody of the group, to me. Should the SLA not have been mentioned, and the ELA stood as an analogue for the SLA, I believe proper parody would be achieved. I propose either a change of wording from "parody" to a "mention" etc. or removal of the list item. Mr.troughton (talk) 07:54, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Gonna go ahead and change that then. Lemme know if you disagree, but for the sake of practicality and my sanity please be polite about it.

Mr.troughton (talk) 07:56, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

It has been made known to me that during the time of the kidnapping of Patty Hearst, there was a plan in place to use the hypnotic characteristics of "The Catcher in the Rye" to produce action against Ronald Reagan and John Lennon, by name. There were others mentioned that had been or would be actions taken against. These are said to represent two fangs of the hydra (a five headed cobra), in the name of Raul and Ramone Castro, Fidels brothers. There were other people mentioned also, in pairs.67.189.51.154 (talk) 20:18, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

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infobox

The "war faction" infobox doesn't fit this group. a "gang" infobox, maybe.142.105.159.60 (talk) 21:17, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

James Michael Hamilton

There is unreferenced material in the article about a supposed bomb-maker for the group named James Michael Hamilton, who is said to have died in 2001. The bulk of the material was added in 2013, though Hamilton has been listed in the Associates and sympathizers section since 2006. Both edits were done by unregistered users. As I can find no reference to him other than items that are derived from this Wikipedia entry, I am going to remove the material. It's disappointing when inaccurate material goes undetected so long. --Larrybob (talk) 23:45, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

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Members eluding articles

Some members have eluded having Wikipedia articles writing on them. Bill Harris, a leader of the SLA for much of its existence (as is quite evident by his on-air statements on the SLA in the 2018 CNN special on Patty Hearst), is not represented by any biography article.Dogru144 (talk)

I noticed this after watching the CNN special today and hearing Harris blab on and on as a perceived victim. He was "really angry" to be charged with the Opsahl murder under the felony murder rule despite having escaped being called to account for 20 years. Why is there no article? Emily is also interesting in her seeming perception as a victim rather than the person who literally KILLED Mrs. Opsahl. (Their statements about "the revolution" and their ideology were laughable back then and are laughable today.) Harris should be appropriately memoralized in Wikipedia. Avocats (talk) 06:51, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Agree with this suggestion. Both had prominent roles post-May 1974 deaths of others in LA.Parkwells (talk) 16:46, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

"Terrorist"

The MO of the SLA undoubtedly qualifies it as a terrorist organization, i.e. one which uses violence to intimidate or coerce a civilian population or government, to further ideological objectives. Please do not revert this description User:Vif12vf Tobor0 (talk) 04:22, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

See MOS:TERRORIST. FDW777 (talk) 06:54, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

FDW777 Later in this very article, they are described as a terrorist organization, and that description has a ref. Nonetheless, I will attach a different ref here for this very obvious and undisputed characterization. Tobor0 (talk) 16:52, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Again see MOS:TERRORIST. If there is any part of that you don't understand, please say so. FDW777 (talk) 16:59, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

I understand it. The FBI and the NY Times are the source for this designation. The FBI is the national law enforcement agency of the US, and the New York Times is the most widely read source of news in the US. This means the application of the term terrorist here is reliable and widely used, and according to the referenced manual page these terms "are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject" (my emphasis). These are not by any means the only sources available to substantiate this usage, only the most prominent. Since we are talking about a descriptor widely used by reliable sources, the manual further advises to use in-text attribution, which I have done. You were initially correct to point me to the MOS, because this usage requires in-line attribution. However now that I've done that, it seems to me that your reversions go against the manual. Please stop reverting this edit unless you have another, different objection. --Tobor0 (talk) 04:04, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Quite clearly you don't understand it, since your addition completely ignores it. You did not add in-text attribution at all. FDW777 (talk) 07:06, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Demonstrably false. Please provide specific criticism or stop your obviously bad faith reversions. Tobor0 (talk) 16:11, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Demonstrably true. Please learn the difference between an in-line citation and in-text attribution. FDW777 (talk) 16:37, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

I've reworked the entire first paragraph. You were markedly unhelpful in this process and your initial objection was totally irrelevant. This article already labels the group as a terrorist organization and uses in-line attribution to do so. My addition was only to pull that information into the summary paragraph. This pedantry only serves to lower the quality and usefulness of articles. Tobor0 (talk) 16:55, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Lead is too long

The Lead needs editing, as it is too long.Parkwells (talk) 20:49, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

DeFreeze Arrest

This page and the Donald DeFreeze page conflict on his reasons for arrest. This page says that he robbed a prostitute, but that claim is not cited and I can find no other source that backs that up. In contrast, the Donald DeFreeze page says he was in a battle with police and had stolen a $1,000 check. Is there a source that confirms either viewpoint? Wazwazirene (talk) 18:54, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Terminology

In the opening paragraph I've changed "militant" to "terrorist" to more accurately reflect the group's activities — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.38.214.252 (talk) 21:01, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

And that's been repeatedly removed, to more accurately reflect the WP:CONSENSUS regarding use of the term. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 18:42, 22 June 2023 (UTC)