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@FlightTime, Meters, Daniel Case, and Dennis Brown: Hello, I made an edit (my change can be found here) that was deputed and has been reverted. Before my edit De Lancie's role as Discord in the lead was listed in the 2nd paragraph where it lists his "other television roles". I disagreed with this, due to his Discord role being easily his most popular and known role right beside his Q role. His other roles listed under "other television roles" were all much less well known/popular than his roles as Q & Discord. So I found it to make much more sense to list his Discord role alongside his Q role in the first paragraph as one of the two roles he is most well known for.
And here is some data proving my point. This is a Google Trends page I made measuring the popularity of Q, Discord, as well as the other roles listed under "other television roles" in the 2nd paragraph (with the exception of Allen Shapiro which I couldn't find a topic for and is clearly a more obscure category). I made it so that it searched in just the United States (since both Star Trek & My Little Pony are American shows), and searched for terms ever since the date that the first episode of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic with Discord in it aired.
For most of the characters I put in (all outside of Discord), I had them searched by topic, which means that Google Trends tries to find every possible example of the the topic (in this case character) being searched instead of just the individual term, controlling for different languages, spellings, and related topics. Unfortunately, I was not able to find a topic for Discord (not sure why that is). But even when I just had it search for the search term "discord mlp" (which unlike searching by topic does not take into account anything outside of searches for that individual term), Q was only about 25% more popular than Discord. If I was able to search for a Discord as a topic like with Q, I wouldn't be surprised if its popularity ended up equivalent to or even greater than Q's during this period. And the other 3 roles I searched for listed under "other television roles" were all far below Q & Discord in popularity by orders of magnitude. So I think this proves that the popularity of Q and Discord are comparable to each other and far greater than De Lancie's other roles. So I believe due to this my edit was proper, it is much more accurate to list Discord as one of the two roles De Lancie is far and away most known for, than it is to lump Discord in with those more minor roles. With this information, are there any objections to reinstating my edit? 67.60.186.104 (talk) 03:48, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't object strenuously but I still object. A lot of what you've presented here indicates you want to edit this article in a way that runs afoul of the rule that says we cannot include information in articles sourced to editors' original research. Would you please give a serious, thorough reading of that policy page and let me know if I'm right to any extent?
- And I disagree regarding de Lancie's second most notable performance. I believe his story arc on Breaking Bad (he was on camera, it lasted several episodes over two seasons, his character was a major part of a long, long buildup to one of the most shocking twists in TV history) has more cultural presence than any of his voice roles or anything else he's done other than Q. City of Silver 04:09, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I think you are correct that Wikipedia doesn't allow original research, but I don't see the relevance. Since my change was just to move the statement on his role as Discord from one paragraph to another, no additional sources should need to be added. If you are suggesting the the claim of it being one of his two best known roles would need to be sourced, then the current claim of Q being his most well known role would also need to be sourced, even though it isn't. And I don't know how such a claim (one role being more popular than other roles) would even be proven via non-original research. I believe that the evidence I presented with the google trends shows that I am correct on Discord being comparable in popularity with Q, and that it should be sufficient to move the statement. And if the argument against it is that I can't source the claim, then the same issue would apply to the Q statement.
- And I definitely do not think his Breaking Bad character is anywhere near as popular as Discord or Q. As far as online searches go, Discord from MLP is searched far more than Donald Margolis is by about 15 times (a discrepancy that would likely be even greater if I was able to search for Discord as a topic), so I see no evidence that his Breaking Bad character is anywhere near as popular as Discord. While I grant you that Breaking Bad as a whole has more cultural relevance than My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic as a whole, I don't think that's true of these two specific characters. While Donald Margolis was important to one arc in Breaking Bad, he still was a minor character who only appeared in a few episodes. In contrast, Discord is probably the most iconic character in MLP outside of the main cast, and got plenty of episodes to himself throughout the show. So it makes sense why Discord appears to be far more popular and have far more cultural relevance than Donald Margolis. 67.60.186.104 (talk) 05:21, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I expressed my opinion, read your argument against, considered your sourcing, and was not convinced at all. I'm also not convinced at all that sourcing anything like that is in compliance with the original research policy. I'll stand by what I said.
- Consensus might form against you citing your claim that Discord is de Lancie's second-most popular character like that. Consensus can indeed result in the removal of sourced text because not everything sourced is worthy of inclusion here. I don't know if you meant it but your message indicates that if that happens, you'll respond by removing text saying that Q his is most popular character, a claim that's so dead-bang obviously true it doesn't need to be sourced. (Just like not everything sourced is worthy of inclusion, not everything worthy of inclusion needs to be sourced, believe it or not.) I hope you don't do that because it would be considered very disruptive. City of Silver 05:52, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I did not mean to imply that I would remove the claim that Q is the most popular character. I have no plans of doing so, and I don't even think that edit should be made. I just don't think it's consistent to say that the Q claim requires no sourcing while the Discord claim would. I agree that my google trends source is original research and would not be valid to include as an actual source in the article. I think we both agree that there would be no way to prove either the Q or Discord claim without original research. So our dispute is whether the statement of Discord being one of his two best known characters is a claim that needs to be sourced. You are saying that the claim that Q is his most popular character is "so dead-bang obviously true it doesn't need to be sourced.". I agree with this, but I can argue that it's just as obviously true that Discord is a very popular role of his that is far more significant than any of his other non-Q roles.
- My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic was a very popular and well known cartoon in the 2010s that is part of a famous franchise, and Discord is one of the most known characters from that show (the other roles listed were either far more minor, parts of far less popular shows, or both.) And I don't think what I just said is really disputable. When it comes to this type of subjective/not entirely provable claim of what a person is the best known for, Wikipedia generally does allow deferring to common knowledge so that these helpful statements can be made without impossible direct sourcing. People are allowed to use their intuition or evidence that can't be sourced to justify making that type of claim in an article. I think that the popularity of both My Little Pony Friendship is Magic in general & the Discord character is clear enough to show that it is a very well known role of De Lancie's that is far more notable than any of the other listed non-Q roles.
- I would be interested in hearing a logically consistent argument that its reasonable to state Q is his most popular role without any direct source but with plenty of non-source evidence, but not reasonable to add Discord to that without a direct source but also plenty of similar non-source evidence. In my view these claims are on the same level. You would justify the Q claim by pointing out the massive popularity of Star Trek: The Next Generation and how significant Q was in the show itself and to fans of it, I would justify the Discord claim by pointing out the massive popularity of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic and how significant Discord was in the show itself and to fans of that show. Since we would justify these two claims in near-identical ways, and there is evidence that I gave suggesting that both claims are true, I don't see any significant difference between these claims. Either Q & Discord both have enough evidence to reasonably cite them as his most known roles, or neither have that evidence. His more minor roles, even his Breaking Bad one, would not be able to be reasonably justified as citing on the same level of Q & Discord under the standards I just gave. Since both Q & Discord can be reasonably cited as his two most known roles via non-source evidence and intuition, and there is clear precedent that this type of claim does not necessarily require a direct source, it makes the most sense to list Discord among Q than it is to less accurately put him on the same level as lesser side characters. Thank you. 67.60.186.104 (talk) 06:51, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- @FlightTime, Meters, Daniel Case, Dennis Brown, Sergecross73, and City of Silver: do any of you find my argument directly above compelling? 67.60.186.104 (talk) 00:31, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Wikipedia runs by consensus, and a consensus appears to have formed saying the role is too minor to be in the lede. Bringing it here is perfectly fine, to test that consensus, but I'm unconvinced. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 04:49, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Fair enough, but do you have any counterarguments against the evidence I gave? 67.60.186.104 (talk) 05:22, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- As Dennis Brown wrote, "Wikipedia runs by consensus" and the consensus seems to be that the voice role of Discord in My Little Pony cartoon does not warrant mention in the first paragraph of the lead. I agree with not including it in the first paragraph. So, since you seem to accept that, there's no need for us to discuss counterarguments. Note that Dennis wrote "in the lede" rather than in the first paragraph of the lede, but I don't believe we were discussing removing the Discord mention completely. Meters (talk) 07:03, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I do accept your point on consensus, so i will not unilaterally make the edit again. But I am still making arguments to try to convert people & change that consensus, as I did above. I think only about 4 people have stated they oppose my change, and there's plenty of room for those people to be convinced otherwise or for more people to speak on this here. And you are right that the Discord mention is currently in the lede (I am assuming Meters just misspoke), my edit was to move it to the first paragraph with Q. I believe that makes much more sense than it's current placement in the 2nd paragraph. 67.60.186.104 (talk) 07:12, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- No, I didn't misspeak. You mean you assume Dennis Brown did.
- So, if you accept the consensus point, and won't move the material again, there is no need for us to provide counterarguments in an attempt to convince you. The page is currently protected because you kept trying to move it, and when the protection ends it will remain as it currently is (unless there is some new consensus). Meters (talk) 07:24, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Apologies, i used the wrong name, I did mean that Dennis Brown mispoke. When I asked you if you had any counterarguments, i did so with the intention of discussing those arguments with you if i still disagreed, so that i could try to convince or others viewing this page (which is exactly what is happening above in my current discussion with City of Silver). 67.60.186.104 (talk) 07:57, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- No, you didn't ask me for counterexamples. Meters (talk) 08:07, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Correct, it was Dennis Brown who I originally asked sorry 67.60.186.104 (talk) 08:19, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm aware that I'm stepping in late to this, but I've only just stumbled upon it. Honestly, @EpicTiger87, I have to agree with the consensus I'm seeing. I want to add some points of clarification, though.
- 1) The NOR argument is nonsense since there is no new content being added to the article as a result of the proposed edit, merely a relocation of content that is already present in a different part of the article.
- 2) The use of Google Trends as evidence is not indicative of broad-base appeal or even awareness. Per Google, 'A spike in a particular topic does not reflect that a topic is somehow “popular” ... only that for some unspecified reason, there appear to be many users performing a search about a topic.' This can be caused by high activity levels from a large, niche online following. Moreover, it's worth noting that when you zoom out to include the full scope of the available data, from 2004-present, the search term "discord mlp" generates results from between 2004 and 2006, when the character did not yet exist, that roughly meet or exceed the average commonality of the term's search frequency since the character was introduced in the show. This raises the concern that at least some of the data included in your original link is capturing searches unrelated to the character, a concern which is further supported by the fact that the height of the trend for the term, in May 2015, coincides with the release of the Discord messaging platform, on May 13, 2015. The search term's second highest peak also coincides with a major event for the Discord platform — its May 2021 branding refresh.
- 3) Now what I'm about to say is of course up for argument, though I don't think you'll find many opposed, but I would say that inclusion in the lede requires broad-base, mainstream awareness of a role. Based on what I've stated in point 2, you have not demonstrated that here. Without evidence to the contrary, I would be inclined to categorize MLP as a large niche rather than a mainstream phenomenon. I therefore oppose the inclusion of that role in the lede, I don't think there is sufficient evidence that any role other than Q belongs there. Leon Nalle (talk) 03:48, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have no stance in this argument, but to point out a couple things to guide the discussion in the right direction:
- While editors are obviously correct that we dictate things by consensus...there appears to be no standing consensus on the matter. This was a simple back and forth between two editors, the IP and FlightTime, who has disappointingly reverted multiple times but not (yet?) participated in the discussion. The IP does need to get a consensus to move forward with their proposal, but there is not so much a "consensus against them" as much as there is "not a consensus to move forward with their edits". There's a difference, annd the emphasis should be more on building a consensus here.
- It is not original research to put together evidence of things like "importance". They're not synthesizing content to be added to the article, they're merely providing evidence for their argument as to where already established content should be placed in the article. If thar sort of thing were unacceptable, it'd be impossible to hold discussions like AFDs or move/rename discussions. We're free to disagree with the data, but it's not improper to present it. Sergecross73 msg me 14:13, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Answering ping, nothing more to add really that hasn't been said by my respected collogues. - FlightTime (open channel) 14:30, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- @Sergecross73: I'm not sure where anyone has expressed SYNTH concerns; I haven't said anything about that because I don't think this is a SYNTH problem. It's very possible for an edit to both comply with SYNTH and violate NOR.
- This is what I'm seeing: the anonymous editor went out and did research themself, attained information and reached a conclusion based on that research, and has tried to add that information while explaining that their source for the information they're adding is their own research. Isn't that what happened? Because if so, they went through the exact step-by-step process that NOR says is not allowed. City of Silver 04:35, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I wouldn't say I tried to add information, I was just changing where already established information was placed and categorized in the article. The original research I showed was evidence to support my argument that my placement and categorization for the information was preferable to the current version of the article. In my 2nd reply to you on the discussion above, I explained how there is clear precedent for it not necessarily requiring proof/sources to claim something is what a person is "best known for", it's more of a categorization than an objective claim. As I explained, if it is reasonable to claim Q is his most well known role because it's so obvious based on intuition and evidence that can't actually be used as a source, than it's also reasonable to claim that Discord is also significantly more well known than his other roles based on intuition and evidence that can't actually be used as a source. So I don't believe that NOR is an issue here for the Discord claim since there already is a consensus on it not being an issue for the Q claim. I think the question here is whether it is more appropriate to categorize Discord as one of de Lancie's two most known roles, or as one of his more minor roles. For the reasons I gave in my previous responses to you, I think the former makes far more sense. 67.60.186.104 (talk) 05:22, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- No, that's not what happened. They didn't add any information, they just changed the order in which it was presented. They're just arguing which roles should be discussed first because are more important. Giving evidence to argue why something should be shown earlier in an article isn't OR. Sergecross73 msg me 14:04, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you, I agree with this. As I explained earlier when replying to City Of Silver, if it is reasonable to state Q is his most popular role without any direct source but with plenty of non-source evidence, then its also reasonable to add Discord to that without a direct source but also plenty of similar non-source evidence. Due to this, this is just a judgement call on whether his Discord role is closer to Q in popularity, or closer to his other more minor roles in popularity. Between common knowledge on MLP's popularity & my Google Trends data, I believe it is clearly more reasonable and accurate to place Discord alongside Q as one of his two most known roles. 67.60.186.104 (talk) 16:42, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, I am the user who has been ip editing on 67.60.186.104. I plan to travel soon and therefore be on dynamic ips that aren't this one, so to solve this issue I decided to make this account. Just posting this here in case anybody is interested in responding to my points on this matter. Thank you. EpicTiger87 (talk) 19:09, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Since it is directly about this issue, here is the new discussion on this matter on the Dispute Resolution noticeboard. EpicTiger87 (talk) 21:51, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- @EpicTiger87: Please quit opening so many discussions on the same topic, damn. WP:DROPTHESTICK - FlightTime (open channel) 22:39, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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