Talk:William Murdoch

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Article name?[edit]

I am the great great great grand nephew of William Murdoch (my name is William Matthew Murdoch). His name was spelled with an "H" on the end "Murdoch". Please make any necessary changes to your web site.

Thanks for the information on him.

Hello William! I am also a great great great (another great? - not too sure...) grand nephew of William Murdoch. Although my family name is now Wilson, my father has the Murdoch name. He's certainly a cool ancestor to have!

Lawrence.

This page was originally created as [[William Murdock]] by User:Pigsonthewing, then moved here. My first thught was to move it back. But I tried several phrase matches usng both alternate spellings. Google shows the 'Murdoch' version is favored, if only by 1 to 10 percent. Lou I 21:08, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

That's not the case. When I created William Murdock, William Murdoch already existed, and I pointed the former at the latter, as the pages' histories show. Andy Mabbett 21:45, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I'm going to be making a major updating of this page & adding a fair bit more detail, please bear with me as I don't have much time each day to do this. AllanHainey 14:05, 4 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The Caledonia Paddle Steamer[edit]

Because early steam ships are rather a mania for me, I sent out to check the claim that the P.S. Caledonia was the first steamer to cross the Channel, and it does not appear to be substantiated.

H.P Spratt's The Birth of the Steamboat (Chas. Griffin, London, 1958), mentions Caledonia (p. 84), saying only: "Two other steamboats, the 'Quebec' and the 'Caledonia' of 45 nominal h.p., followed soon after in 1817. The machinery for the Quebec of 500 tons, was obtained from Messrs. Maudslay, Sons and Field, of London; it was rated at 56 nominal h.p. and developed 100 indicated h.p." (Note 264, referring to this section, cites The Maudslay Society, Henry Maudslay, 1771-1831; and Maudslay, Sons and Field (Bedford, 1949), p. 44).

This isn't inherently helpful one way or the other, but on pp. 92-94 Spratt writes of the P.S. Margery, later Élise, laid down in 1813 and launched in June 1814 (p. 92).

On p94 Spratt says: "She was chartered or sold, in about March 1816, to Messrs. Andriel, Pajol et Cie., of Paris (note 303), renamed by them the 'Élise', and refitted for service on the river Seine (note 304). Under the command of Captain Pierre Andriel, who later introduced the first steamboat service on the the Mediterranean with the 'Ferdinando Primo' (see p. 105), and with Captain Anthony Cortis and Mr. W. Jackson (a former collaborator of Robert Fulton also on board (note 305), the 'Élise' steamed from the Thames in stormy weather to Newhaven. She left there on the 17th March 1816, and battled her way (note 306) across the Channel (the first steamer that ever did so) in the face of southerly head-winds, and reached Havre the next day, after seventeen hours at sea (note 307)."

Notes read as follows. 303: Circulaire publicitaire: L'Entreprise brevetée de navigation accélérée Pierre Andriel, Pajol et Cie., par l'emploi de pompes à vapeur Paris, 18 Janvier 1816. 304: Parliamentary Papers, London, 1822, No. 417, Fifth Report of the Select Committee on Holyhead Roads: Steam boats, etc. Appendix I by Joshua Field, p. 198. Note 305: La Quotidienne, Paris, 22 Mars 1816, p. 3. Note 306: Journal des Débats, Paris, 28 Mars 1816. Spratt H. Philip et Bigot, Germaine L., "Le premier navire à vapeur à travers la Manche." Revue Maritime, Service Historique de la Marine, Paris, Février 1957, pp. 170-175. Note 307: Histoire de la Marine. Editée par Illustration, Paris, 1934, p. 330.

Just to clear up the question, as the above does not settle the more specific matter of whether the Caledonia was the first British (as in British-flag) vessel to cross the Channel, she appears not to have been. Jean-Jacques Antier's Les Premiers Paquebots à vapeur (L'Ancre de Marine, St-Malo, 1984) lists the Defiance, of Greenock, as having crossed the Channel in 1816, en route to the river Main, before the Caledonia (p. 87). Antier's book is not footnoted.

Hurrah ! A first ! Antier says that the Caledonia was the first steamer to cross the North Sea from Britain to Scandinavia (presumably, but not definitely, Norway) in 1818 (p. 89). Angus McLellan 23:38, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The source for the claim that the Caledonia was the 1st to cross the Channel was The Third man by John Griffiths (referenced in the article) it states (on p 328) "William thus missed being on the first Channel Steamboat crossing, which Watt junior courageously accomplished." and gives the reference date 06/10/1817 for a letter sent 2 days after the Caledonia set off from Surrey Docks (to Margate Harbour then across the Channel), though no date of the actual journey & there isn't a great deal about it in the book as it is a biography of Murdoch & he didn't make the trip. It doesn't mention Scandinavia but says the cross-channel trip was from Margate Harbour to Rotterdam then up the Scheldt and Rhine to Koblenz. As Griffiths isn't a naval historian and the steamboats you cite seem fairly obscure I suppose it's easy to assume he was mistaken in his attribution of the Caledonia as the 1st to cross the channel. I'll remove the claim from the article. AllanHainey 12:33, 30 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Its an excellent article by the way. When I saw you mention John Griffiths above, I did a double-take. There was a successful American C19th shipbuilder and engineer by that name, he had something to do with perfecting the propellor. WP doesn't have an article on him. Angus McLellan 19:33, 30 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Natural Gas?[edit]

This article includes a paragrapgh : "Tales also abound of William carrying out early experiments into natural gas using coal heated in a copper kettle in a small cave 70 feet (20 m) from his father's mill. There is however no contemporary documentation for these claims." Surely if he is making gas from coal it is coal gas or Town_gas, not natural gas? --AGoon 10:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. it would be coal/town gas.DuncanHill 14:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nonsense?[edit]

The following phrase strikes me as nonsense:

Watt's partner Matthew Boulton was so impressed by Murdoch's wooden hat, made on a lathe of his own design that he gave him a job.

I won't remove it because I'm not familiar with the subject...but a cite and some context would go a long way (or, if it is in fact nonsense, then...removal is of course in order.) Paul 10:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not nonsense, but a famous story told, for example, in Carnegie's bio of Watt, p 137.DonSiano 12:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Murdock/Murdoch House, Redruth[edit]

I have boldly removed the sceptic statement

"It is frequently claimed that Murdoch's house at Redruth - or his cottage at Soho - was the first domestic residence to be lit by gas. While this claim can be more believably applied to his cottage in Redruth than to Soho most witnesses to his private demonstrations of gas lighting agree that his gas production and lighting apparatus was in fact set up in his workshop or foundry in his yard, rather than the house itself and that there was no permanent gas lighting in place in his home. In view of the smell, risk of poisoning and chance of accidental combustion of this experimental method of lighting it is no surprise that it was not, even by its inventor, used as widely or as casually as is today often claimed."

and added its antihesis, on the basis of the ODNB article, citing F.Trevithick (1872).See footnote. Please revert if this is an unreliable source and tell those people in OUP. ===Vernon White (talk) 18:20, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lunar Society -- member or not?[edit]

Today, Murdoch was removed from Category:Members of the Lunar Society for the simple reason that Murdoch was "not a member of the Lunar Society", which seems fair enough. However, the article still states that he was a member, and several external websites also seem to think the same, although at least one notes him as 'associated with' rather than actually being one of the members.

Since the fact in question is uncited in the article, I have added a 'fact' tag and raised the question here to make it easier to restore the category or remove the text, whichever is more appropriate.EdJogg (talk) 16:31, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is correct: Jenny Uglow, The Lunar Men (Faber and Faber, London 2002), p.353 specifically says that "None of the talented Soho employees was brought in", mentioning Murdoch and John Southern. Peterkingiron (talk) 22:26, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Murdoch was in Cornwall installing and maintaining the steam engines so even if he wanted he could not have been a member. Schofield comes to the same conclusion in the standard work on the Lunar Society: Schofield, Robert E. (1963). The Lunar Society of Birmingham: A Social History of Provincial Science and Industry in Eighteenth-Century England. London: Oxford University Press / Clarendon Press. p. 491.. This is a much more scientific reference than the populistic book by Uglow which in the first edition even had the subtitle: Five friends that changed the world... --DrJunge (talk) 05:49, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Similarities with Trevithick Carriages[edit]

I have removed the comment about the similarities with the Puffing Devil and the London Carriage - there are few similarities beyond the obvious ones connecting all steam carriages. As The Oblivion of Trevithick by Philip Hosken states 'they could have been built by strangers at different ends of the country' such are the differences between them.

Chenab (talk) 18:30, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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