Talk:Tōdai-ji

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[edit]

Name is redundant (Temple = ji). Anyone care to move to Todaiji? Story I heard about hair is that it's snails, which crawled onto the historical Buddha's head to keep him cool while he meditated in the heat.

[edit]

Reputedly the largest wooden building in the world... That honor, I'm afraid, actually goes to a dirigible hanger in Tillamook, Oregon. --Calton 15:44, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

  • Well, the Guinness Book of Records gives Woolloomooloo Bay Wharf, Sydney, Australia the honour [1]. As usual, it's probably a case of how your define "largest" for buildings.--Malcohol 10:33, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I think we should move it.[edit]

I agree. 'ji' means temple, so it's redundant. And I just think "The Todaiji" sounds better, and more accurate. Also, is anybody interested in adding to the history of this structure? I know it was destroyed in the Genpei Wars, as was the Daibutsu inside. The article seems to indicate as though it has never been destroyed nor rebuilt... If no one else wants to, I suppose I could add things, but...

  • I'll see if I've any details on it at home (I picked up a handful of stuff at the tourist office in Nara, so there's got to be something in there). But if you want to add details to the history of the temple, by all means do so. If you're unsure whether people will believe you, cite your sources. Oh yes, and I agree with the move proposal. Average Earthman 11:26, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The meaning of a Japanese suffix is not particularly relevant. What we need to look at is how it would be best understood in English, and "Tojaiji temple" is often used in English. Literature handed out on-site isn't particularly relevant to answering that question; if you are there, you will know from various other ways that what you are looking at is a religious ediface, without having to have it spelled out in the name. It's different here. Gene Nygaard 20:43, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • Below are some Google tests I just performed. (I've used Nara, Todaiji's location, to exclude random occurences). There are certainly plenty of references to Todaiji which don't use the term temple, and plenty (although not as many) which do. I'm suprised to see so many occurences of Todai-ji. I do see your point about what a Wikipedia user would expect. --Malcohol 09:32, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
      1. 23,600 for Todai-ji Nara
      2. 16,800 for Todai-ji Temple Nara
      3. 16,700 for Todaiji Nara
      4. 11,800 for Todaiji Temple Nara
      5. 7,940 for "Todaiji Temple" Nara
      6. 6,120 for Todai Temple Nara
      7. 830 for "Todai-ji Temple" Nara
      8. 276 for "Todai Temple" Nara
  • Not that it's a terribly big deal now, but it's only natural that when you add a term to a google search that you will recieve fewer hits. It would be impossible for "Todai-ji Temple Nara" to have more hits than "Todai-ji Nara". Seems like a bit of a rigged test to me. In any case, "Todai-ji" is still the proper name for the article, if for no other reason than it follows the standard set for such articles as Kiyomizu-dera and Hōryū-ji. -- Exitmoose 01:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 23:18, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The usage "Todai-ji" is now the accepted format among writers and translators dealing with Japan, and although I am not fond of it, it is perhaps best to accept the convention. Iwanafish, Nara.

Mysteries[edit]

Rename it the "mystery temple" and let us try to solve the mystery of why the normal rules of mathematics are suspended there. How, if the Buddha contains 440 kg of gold and 499 "tons" (whatever they are) of copper, does the total weight get to be "250 tons"?

>> The metal is used for coating, not for the actual buddha. Duh.

What are " balls whose diameter are 18 cm and whose height are 30 cm each"? To me, balls are round objects. Spheres. Same height as diameter. Gene Nygaard 20:32, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Shinto Buddhism?[edit]

Changed "Shinto Buddism(sic)" to Shinto. Shinto and Buddhism have been linked from time to time in history, (see Shinbutsu Shugo) but Shinto is definitely not a form of Buddhism. Tallasse 02:41, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Deer not afraid of humans[edit]

Is it relevant that the deer are not afraid? It somehow gives the wrong impression, they can be quite intimidating demanding food and snapping ladies handbags. Grmf 12:48, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


Pillar photo in the gallery[edit]

For some odd reason, the photo in the gallery of someone crawling through the pillar doesn't display properly. I've removed it until someone can find the reason and fix the problem. -- Exitmoose 01:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I've tried it in Firefox and Internet Explorer and it works in both. Maybe it was a temporary glitch, or maybe the problem has been solved? I've put the photo back. Let us know if it doesn't work for your browser. Fg2 07:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Intro and History[edit]

Some notes and thoughts:

Intro: re: Sika Deer Not to say there is anything wrong with this statement itself at all, it may find a better place to fit itself in than here. eg. Nara Park, Kasuga Shrine. Left for the moment, but with a small question mark to see it especially in the top intro of a Buddhist temple article.

History: re: Emperor Shomu's "law" Can "ordinance" instead of "law" sound better for this context?

History: re: Number of people involved - 2.6 Million? It's not in legend, it is documented. Some redundancy around the mention of this figure is removed. The estimate of total population of that time needs some citation, which was not provided, therefore removed; besides, judging whether the number is exaggerated or not should be left open to the readers or historians, unless another citation on such comment is available.

History: Kuninaka-no-muraji Kimimaro He may merit his own article page, as being a prominent sculptor of this period, than only occupying a full line or two inside the body text of this article. --OhMyDeer 19:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Another couple of points: It claims to be largest wooden structure in the world but no dimensions are given. We need a WxLxH and area. also if there is debate about if it is the biggest: some background.

The stuff about the daibutsu dominates n article which is supposed to be about the architecture. This could do with a separate wiki article? In that also the Japanese "daibutsu" should have a literal English translation to make its significance clear i.e. big buddha

I added the photo of the South Gate as part of a traditional garden to underscore the point that the temple is part of a greater community visually. Iwanafish,Nara.

History: I'm not sure I fully understand the phrase "later when the capital of Japan moved to Kamakura", as I don't believe Kamakura ever became an actual "capital", as that was always considered Kyoto. I know that the shogunate of Minamoto was established in Kamakura, but was that really considered the "capital"? Please inform... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stagewalker3 (talkcontribs) 14:13, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Daibutsu (big buddha) weight is weigh off![edit]

The weight appears to be wrong and an arbitrary estimate by the author. This source put it at 25 tonnes

http://www.pref.nara.jp/nara_e/area01/index.html

Nobody knows I suspect so I suggest it is not included as the Todai-ji home page doesn't seem to have it either (because of course nobody knows, although I'm sure a team from Kyoto University will spend billions of yen and waste ten years to find out the truth). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.20.89.143 (talk) 16:29, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

Worth, appearance[edit]

I removed the sentence "Regardless, the effort was worthwhile - the Buddha stands today as it did more than 1300 years ago." First, Wikipedia should not judge whether something is worthwhile. Second, the appearance has changed during the intervening years, especially during the Siege of Nara. Fg2 (talk) 08:44, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, such statements detract from Wikipedia's neutral point of view. We're here just to present the facts. Thanks for catching that.  :) --Ph0kin (talk) 11:40, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Too many pics[edit]

I like all the pictures people have submitted for Todaiji, but I feel the article is getting pretty crowded and hard to edit reliably. Can we somehow move most of the pictures, save for a couple good ones, to the gallery at the bottom? --Ph0kin (talk) 12:01, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

In my view, the approach is not to pick the best pictures, but to decide what to illustrate, and then pick photos that illustrate it most clearly. Your opinion might be different. Either way, this is a good time for rearranging them between the main text and the gallery (or making multiple galleries). I support it.
A couple of further thoughts:
For a temple with as many National Treasures as this, and as thoroughly photographed, it would even be feasible to concentrate on illustrating National Treasures. But of course there are other good approaches.
Many galleries in various articles can be moved entirely to Commons. Fg2 (talk) 12:53, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

"the world's largest bronze statue of the Buddha Vairocana"[edit]

I don't think this is correct. The Echizen Daibutsu at the Seidai-ji in Katsuyama, Fukui prefecture, is 2 meters higher (see here: http://www.geocities.jp/etizen_daibutu/birusyanabutu.htm ). There is not much English information about it, I could scan the pamphlet if this helps... The Showa Daibutsu near Aomori is even higher, although not placed within a buidling. Both are made from bronze. 180.188.217.44 (talk) 17:25, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Aiming for B class[edit]

So we need to get more refs and make the page more accessible. Well what statements need refs and accessible in what way? I will be at Todai-ji on Saturday (I go a lot, there is a really nice shop on the street leading up to it where you can buy extra large sized Japanese slippers and mine are wearing out). so if there is anything that I could get while I'm there that would help I'm up for it. I can pick up some of the little reference books they sell in the souvenir shops but they will be in Japanese so my refs will not be check-able by anyone who does not read Kanji. Colincbn (talk) 01:59, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I did the assessment. Project members have been discussing this article at the project's main discussion page. Here are my recommendations ofr improving this article:
  • References: There are a number of claims sprinkled throughout the article that need references. The first paragraph of the "Roots" section, last line of "Role in early Japanese Buddhism", the entire "Decline" section. I think someone mentioned in an earlier comment here that there was a descrepency in the weight of the Daibutsu. Several paragraphs have only one reference each, which usually isn't considered acceptable. Other sections have no references, such as the "Temple Precincts and Gardens" (which should be re-written anyway) and the "Cultural References" section.
    • As for the references themselves, reading kanji isn't too much problem, but as for reliability and verifiability, I would avoid using any tourist pamphlets. They're not considered good sources on Wikipedia, because of their lack of availability, and I know from experience that pamphlets from tourist sites aren't always factually correct.
  • Accessibility: There are some terms which need brief explanation, like the Shuni-e festival, Vinaya, and Kukai. They're linked, but a reader shouldn't have to follow 2 or 3 links in a short paragraph. A short gloss should satisfy most of these.
  • Coverage: It seems like there's a gap in history between the 9th and 20th centuries.
Good luck! Boneyard90 (talk) 12:05, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Photos and the Cultural Properties Database[edit]

Am extremely envious! At the moment there's a list of buildings that are National Treasures but there are also a lot of Important Cultural Properties. Maybe it would be good to have a table of all these buildings running something like this (I've populated it from the database, with search for 東大寺). I guess the more complete and the higher-quality the images the better - should give you plenty to look out for! Happy hunting! Also, do we need some kind of plan to make overall sense of the complex?

Image Name Date Architecture Other Comments Designation
now this is where you come in... East Kairō (東廻廊)[1] 1716-37 41x1 bay, single-storey, tiled roof ICP
West Kairō (西廻廊)[2] 1716-37 41x1 bay, single-storey, tiled roof ICP
Toudai-ji kaizandou.jpg Kaisandō (開山堂)[3] 1200-50 3x3 bay, single-storey, hōgyō-zukuri, tiled roof NT
Kanjinshokyōko (勧進所経庫)[4] 794-929 3x3 bay, azekura, yosemune-zukuri, tiled roof Repository for donations ICP
Tōdai-ji Kon-dō.jpg Kondō (Daibutsuden) (金堂 (大仏殿))[5] 1705 5x5 bay, single-storey with mokoshi, yosemune-zukuri, tiled roof, copper-tiled karahafu NT
Gorintō (五輪塔)[6] 1185-1274 ICP
Sanmaidō (Shigatsudō) (三昧堂(四月堂))[7] 1681 3x3 bay, twin-storey, yosemune-zukuri, tiled roof ICP
Todaiji shoro.jpg Shōrō (鐘楼)[8] 1207-10 1x1 bay, single-storey, irimoya-zukuri, tiled roof NT
Oyuya (大湯屋)[9] 1408 8x5 bay, single-storey, irimoya-zukuri front, kirizuma-zukuri rear, tiled roof, tsumairi Bath-house ICP
Todaiji11s3200.jpg Chūmon (中門)[10] 1714 5 bay, three-door rōmon, tiled roof ICP
Tengaimon Gate.jpg Tegaimon (転害門)[11] Nara period 3 bay, single-door hakkyakumon, kirizuma-zukuri, tiled roof NT
Tōzaigakumon (East) (東西楽門 (東))[12] 1722 3 bay, single-door hakkyakumon, kirizuma-zukuri, tiled roof ICP
Tōzaigakumon (West) (東西楽門 (西))[13] 1719 3 bay, single-door hakkyakumon, kirizuma-zukuri, tiled roof ICP
TodaijiNandaimon0185.jpg Nandaimon (南大門)[14] 1199 5 bay, three-door, twin-storey, irimoya-zukuri, tiled-roof NT
NaraTodaiji0271.jpg Nigatsu-dō (二月堂)[15] 1669 10x7 bay, single-storey, yosemune-zukuri, tiled-roof NT
Nigatsu-dō sanrōsho (二月堂参籠所)[16] 1277-1282 5x4 bay, single-storey, kirizuma-zukuri, tiled-roof For seclusion and prayer ICP
Nigatsu-dō busshōya (gokūsho) (二月堂仏餉屋(御供所))[17] 1185-1274 5x2 bay, single-storey, kirizuma-zukuri, tiled-roof For preparation of ritual food offerings ICP
Nigatsu-dō akaiya (wakasaiya) (二月堂閼伽井屋(若狭井屋))[18] 1275-1332 3x2 bay, single-storey, kirizuma-zukuri, tiled-roof Double well for serving Buddha ICP
Nembutsu- (念仏堂)[19] 1237 3x3 bay, single-storey, yosemune-zukuri, tiled-roof ICP
Todaiji10s3200.jpg Hokke- (法華堂)[20] 747, 1199 5x8 bay, single-storey, irimoya-zukuri front, yosemune-zukuri rear, tiled-roof NT
Hokke- repository (法華堂経庫)[21] 794-929 3x3 bay, azekura, yosemune-zukuri, tiled-roof ICP
Hokke- temizuya (法華堂手水屋)[22] 1335 7x4 bay, kirizuma-zukuri, tiled-roof ICP
Hokke- north gate (法華堂北門)[23] 1240 four-post, kirizuma-zukuri, tiled-roof ICP
Honbōkyōko (本坊経庫)[24] 710-793 3x2 bay, azekura, yosemune-zukuri, tiled-roof Repository NT

Plus apparently the precinct and south precinct are Historic Sites. The Shōsōin photo is a little dark; there are lots of statues without good images (don't know if you will be able to do much about that though) - the possibilities are nigh endless... Have fun, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 16:45, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Plan of Todaiji

Wow! This is Exactly what I needed! I wont be able to get every shot on this trip but I will make a start at it. I will be going back several times through out the summer so I hope to fill in the list. I will look at the other lists of Treasures and do my best on them as well. The only ones that may prove difficult are ones in museums with "no Photo" policies. But If I ask politely to be allowed to take one shot each visit I may get permission for all of them eventually heh. Thanks! Colincbn (talk) 01:57, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
Yes, no photo policies are the main reason why we don't have many pictures of museum objects or sculptures. Probably you know it already, but since it took me some time to realize, I want to mention it anyway... No photo policies have nothing to do with licensing of the images you take. Any old stuff is public domain, so you are free to take pictures of it and upload to commons. No photo rules are basically house rules. If you took a picture of a no-photo-object and uploaded it to commons, you'd violate these house rules but not copyright/licensing. Not sure what could happen if you violate house rules. They could probably refuse you entry next time you visit, so better ask whether it is allowed to take pictures. bamse (talk) 07:45, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  2. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  3. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  4. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  5. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  6. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  7. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  8. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  9. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  10. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  11. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  12. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  13. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  14. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  15. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  16. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  17. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  18. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  19. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  20. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  21. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  22. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  23. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.
  24. ^ "Database of National Cultural Properties". Agency for Cultural Affairs. Retrieved 19 May 2011.

Remains[edit]

Just for curiosity, what is left of old temple structures indicated in this map as dotted lines, e.g. East/West pagodas, Saidaimon,... bamse (talk) 20:58, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

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