Talk:Milesians (Irish)
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[Untitled][edit]
At the moment the bottom part of the page, at least for me, is a mess. I suppose it's suppose to be a chart, but it's a mess of "|"'s and names. Just a heads up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.188.211.142 (talk) 10:18, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Please, add to Note 12 the following link: http://books.google.es/books?id=5afzmtiTZdIC&lpg=PA559&ots=AvfTzfFYII&dq=carlos%20ii%20irlandeses%20espa%C3%B1a&hl=es&pg=PA316#v=onepage&q&f=false It's an spanish reference: Recio Morales, Oscar (2002): "De nación irlandés": Percepciones socio-culturales y respuestas políticas sobre Irlanda y la comunidad irlandesa en la España del XVII, en Irlanda y la Monarquía Hispánica: Kinsale 1601-2001. Guerra, política, exilio y religión, CSIC: University of Alcala, pp. 315-340, p. 316 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.138.43.94 (talk) 10:37, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
2004 edits[edit]
Is there any connection between the Irish Milesians (Sons of Mil Espaine or Milesius) and the Greek Milesians (presumably followers of Miletus)? There is some entanglement of these two uses between Wikipedia articles that should be straightened out with either a disambiguation page or a combined article. -- Jeff Q 07:28, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
- It's my understanding now that the Irish Milesians and the Greek Milesians are two different peoples. Therefore, unless people object, I plan to rename this article Milesians (Irish) and establish a disambiguation page for Milesians that will include links to the appropriate different pages. I will also update all existing links to this Irish Milesian page at that time so all other references will directly jump to the new Milesians (Irish) article. -- Jeff Q 07:38, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
What Celtic tribe did the Gaels originate from in Spain? Is that known? Is there an article about them?
I've read in a few books, though apologies can't remember the titles, that it was the Basques who went by sea after the last ice age and settled in Ireland which was empty of people at that time. And claiming that the Irish are basically Basque people. Certainly, by looks, there are a fair number of Basques who could be cutting the turf! Oppenheimer(Australian I believe)states firmly that 98% of the Irish share a same gene with the Basques. It's true that if you take a boat north from Euskadi and on the right current, you will land on Ireland(From Terence Magee Date: 19 Feb 2014) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Terencemagee (talk • contribs) 15:35, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, Artabros tribe of Brigantia in Galicia ---All this kindred forms the Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH) of R1b Y chromosome, also called haplotype 15, with alleles: DYS388 12 DYS390 24 DYS391 11 DYS392 13 DYS393 13 DYS394 14 (also known as DYS19)......the Basques also descended from Galicians, but not your language --Bretema7 (talk) 22:16, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Succession Box[edit]
Would the succession box not be better at the bottom of the page, instead of half way? Other articles on 'Wiki' have the boxes at the bottom, keeps it more uniform. Culnacréann Horse Ireland 23:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Brigantia[edit]
The ancient Celtic Brigantes and Gallaecians inhabited the whole northeastern corner of the peninsula, including the areas of A Coruna and Bragança. However a Coruna is mentioned in local Celtic folklore- According to Gaelic legend embodied in the 11th-century compilation Lebor Gabala Erren— the "Book of Conquests"— King Breogán, the founding father of the Galician Celtic nation, constructed here a massive tower of such a grand height that his sons could see a distant green shore from its top. The glimpse of that distant green land lured them to sail north to Ireland. A colossal statue of Breogán has been erected near the Tower. Later in Roman times, a tower was built in A Coruna, likely in the same place of a previously existing structure (whose construction they ascribed to Hercules).
In Galicia it is commonly said that the Tower of Hercules is the Tower of Breogan (our mythical founder figure). His son Ith, then sailed from Brigantia to Ireland. See gl:Ith (in Galician). Are there similar tales going around in Portugal? I never heard of any. Naturally Galician and Northern Portuguese people are both descended from ancient Celtic tribes, and there were towns called Brigantia in what is today either country. But the Brigantium that today is A Coruna is on the sea directly south of Ireland, whereas Bragança is almost 200km inland. How could Ith have "sailed from Brigantia" if it was 200km from the sea?. If you want to see new land beyond the sea, do you build a tower by the said sea, or do you build it 200km inland?
As a side note, google Breogan Coruña and you get 304.000 hits, do it with Breogan Bragança and you get only 193 hits. Which is the obscure theory?
Some links from the web:
- http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Places/District/395170
- http://www.celtiberia.net/articulo.asp?id=583
84.90.16.160 20:55, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- The Tower of Hercules, is a reconstructed and modernization on the Celtic lighthouse in Roman Empire times...but not Roman in origin, until the late 19th century was called Lighthouse brigantia --Bretema7 (talk) 00:24, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
- I thought Brigantium was the Latin name for present-day Betanzos? 87.241.47.125 (talk) 15:06, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
Terminology section[edit]
The "Terminology" section in the article is better suited to the talk page, rather than the article itself. Shoveling Ferret (talk) 09:28, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Definitely, it's in the first person, it's unreferenced speculation, etc. So, here it is:
- "I wonder wether the Irish have misunderstood the Iberia that was mentioned in thier histories ,it may have been in Iberia in the Caucasus as Iberia was known before 800ad and the Milesians were more than likely Scythian Note: the term "Milesian" is an artificial English one, based on the name of the supposed ancestor, Míl. Any similarity to the term "Milesians" as applied to the ancient Greeks of Miletus is coincidental."
- If we are to include any of it, it needs sources. Doug Weller (talk) 11:41, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia "Galicia" Article[edit]
The Milesians may not be a myth; in Wikipedia's "Galicia" article, there is a link at the bottom that points to a website saying that the Irish have more in common with the Celts of Northwestern Spain, than they do with the Celts of Central Europe. The Irish, in fact have more in common genetically with the Galicians, than they do with other Celtic populations. There may be some historical truth to the myth; according to Irish "myth," they are originally from Spain, descended from a dude called "Milesius."
Really wish scholars would take mythology more seriously and do some detective work. Who knows what else people will find besides just "Troy."
67.148.120.113 (talk) 04:06, 9 October 2009 (UTC)stardingo747
The porblem wiht fiding the Truth behind this mth is the mythogloy changed the Etymology of Milesians. The Milesians of Irleand are the SAEM as the Milesians of Greece. Whihc is covered in Bill Cooper's book After The Flood. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.144.42.153 (talk) 06:47, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
- A book of Creationist fiction which can't be used as a source here. Dougweller (talk) 07:33, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Journey and Gothic links ignored[edit]
In the reign of King Brath , son of Dega, the Gadelians sailed form Portland or Gothinia, having with him as commanders Oige and Uige, sons of Alloyed, son of Ne niul , also , Mantan and Cancer. They sailed to Spain and there Alloid left a son named Bertha, who had a son named Breoghan , Founder of the city of Bregonia or Braganza, in la Coruna , Galicia. There they fought the native Iberians where the young Milesius became known for his bravery. When the wars had stopped Milesius decides to sail eastwards retrace the steps of his ancestors in Scythia . When he finally reaches Scythia and is welcomed by King Rifloir, who later is killed by Milesius when he learns that King Rifle planned to have him killed. During this time his two sons by his 1st wife Seng are born Donn and Are the Red Browed. Milesius sailed to Egypt were he again is victorious in many battles and marries Scota , the daughter of the Pharaoh Nectanebo II of Egypt who ruled Egypt from 360 - 343 B.C..
Milesius having recalled the ancient prophecy of Cancer, sailed from Egypt into the island of Irene, off the coast of Thracia. There his wife Scota gave birth to Ir, the 3rd son of Milesius. From Thrace, he marched trough the European continent and reached the Baltic sea, where with a fleet he reached the island of Gothiana, a island which divides the Baltic sea and the Arctic sea. On this island his 4th son Colpa of the Sword was born. From Gothiana they sailed to Alba or Caledonia where they plundered then they sailed past the Orkneys and Shetlands islands down thru the British Channel to the Bay of Biscay to Spain. There Milesius fought 54 battles against the Goths and other warrior nations. 1. Pharaoh Nectanebo II of Egypt who ruled Egypt from 360 - 343 B.C. 2. The Goths invaded Northern Spain circa 475 A.D. 3. The Goths invade Moesia in 248 A.D. 4. The Goths move into Asia minor during 250 - 270 A.D. 5. The Goths invade Greece , Thrace, and Asia minor in 258 A.D. 6. The Ostrogoths leave Greece, Thrace and Asia minor in 270 A.D. 7. All the Milesians myths sound very familiar to the Goths journey through Europe. Which leads one to see that the creation of the Irish myths were influenced by the Historia de regibus Gothorum, Vandalorum et Suevorum. 8. In the Irish myths Milesius was a Scythian nobel whose ancestors were born in Scythia, the island of Gotland, Northern Spain , Thrace and Egypt. In the accounts of writers like Keating, O'Hart and other pedigree writers of their time they all have the same accounts .The notion that a Aristocratic Scythian tribe are the progenitors of a entire society , a group of Scythians from Northern Spain and from the island of Gotland. The myth does not hold when tested by science and historical facts. Still many still do believe they descend from the Milesians. 9. The Irish scribes either wanted to associate the Royal lines of their Celtic kings and chiefs to a Gothic / Scythian origin or they were retelling the folklore of a Gothic / Scythian bloodline in Ireland. The Goths were a Eastern Germanic tribe in no way associated with Celtic culture or origins. 10. (Brath is said to be the last of the Kings of Gothinia to have led his people from Gothinia into Galicia . Before him there were 9 ancestors of Milesius who are described to have been kings of Gothinia. In the Irish tales the Milesians home land is Scythia and before they settled in Northern Spain they originally sailed from the island of Gothinia " Gotland". ) 11. The Milesians were not native Iberians nor were they of a Celtic origin. All Irish legends have the Milesians being from Scythia and the island of Gothinia originally before they conquered Spain then Ireland. Milesius is said to have fought the Goths in Spain before he traveled back to his home land of Scythia and then Gothinia again other accounts have him fighting against the Goths and then conquering Ireland. This would place the Milesians in the year of 475 A.D. this was the time the Goths and Vandals were conquering Iberia. In ancient accounts the island of Scanza , homeland of the Goths was called " Scythia Antigua". Dacia, during the fourth century, when it was settled by Goths it was called Gothika.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Redhandking (talk • contribs) 18:48, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- This is what we call 'original research', see WP:OR, and does not belong either in the article or on this page. If you have reliable sources - read WP:RS about the Milesians making this argument, bring them here and we can discuss them. But we aren't going to discuss your ideas or have a debate here as this is not a forum page to discuss the Milesians. Thanks. Doug Weller (talk) 21:17, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
It's not a debate or " original ideas" look at all the writings form O'Hart , Keating's etc. and this is what is written or is it just simply ignored? maybe you should read these books all over again..
The general history of Ireland, tr. with amendments by D. ... - Page 118 Geoffrey Keating, Dermod O'Connor
Irish pedigrees: or, The origin and stem of the Irish nation, Volume 1 By John O'Hart page 49
Keating's history of Ireland By Geoffrey Keating page 663
Redhandking (talk) 21:51, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Notes and queries By Oxford Journals (Firm) page 210 The general history of Ireland By Geoffrey Keating page 219 History of Ireland: from the earliest times to the present day, Volume 1 Edward Alfred D'Alton The plantation of Ireland: or a review of the origin and history of her ... By John Johnston Kelso page 63 A short history of the Irish people from the earliest times to 1920 By Mary Teresa Hayden, George Aloysius Moonan page 5 Duffy's Hibernian magazine: a monthly journal of legends, tales, and stories ... Romance of Irish history page 212
The information is in these books for anyone to see if they chose to not ignore them. Thank you. Redhandking (talk) 22:09, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
- Do I gather from the incomplete titles that this is a Google search? Please don't leave spaces at the beginning of lines. Dougweller (talk) 06:06, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- I found Notes and Queries, perhaps you mean p. 211 which says "I again repeat that I am ashamed to quote such rubbish: the very name of Milesian is a jest to the antiquaries of Europe" - but as he's referring to his quote from Geoffrey Keating, maybe you only saw the Keating quote. Anyway, the article isn't meant to be a history of all the myths or simply errors and ignorance about the Milesians, although if you have a source for an analysis of them that would be useful. You don't expect us to take O'Hart, etc seriously do you? Spain was first peopled after the Deluge? Dougweller (talk) 07:41, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
The myth should be explained starting with his journey to see that these tales are a fiction i did not post info for a historical view or to bring any credibility to a myth . I think i explained already "The myth does not hold when tested by science and historical facts. Still many still do believe they descend from the Milesians." something i already wrote above. Maybe you did not read all i posted above. I myself have family and ancestors from Galicia and Asturias where these tales do not excist at all only brought in by some Irish tourist or merchants . I think this article should explain why these Milesians stories are myths and a creation based or influenced by the Historia de regibus Gothorum, Vandalorum et Suevorum and other factors. I myself do not take O'Hart or Keating but there are those who do and i these myths should be explained in detail and showned how it they do not make any sence. Since most of the O'Hart , Keating etc. are the sources with which many base the Milesians myths and pedigrees.
History of Ireland from the Earliest Times to the Present Day, Volume 1, Part 2 By Edward Alfred D'Alton make a interesting analysis of myths another book is Irish Orientalism: A Literary and Intellectual History By Joseph Lennon page 24 , An inquiry concerning the primitive inhabitants of Ireland By Thomas Wood page 124. All these books make a analysis of these Milesian myths.
Redhandking (talk) 14:20, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- Any analysis should be based not on 17thc or even 19th century writers, but more modern ones, going back perhaps to Rolleston in the early 20th c. This looks like a good start: British Identities before Nationalism Ethnicity and Nationhood in the Atlantic World, 1600–1800 Colin Kidd. It would need to be a modern analysis. Dougweller (talk) 14:59, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
That's base don the latter forms of the myth, oriognal the Milesians where called that cause they came from the Greek city of Miletus (Which had a mixed Population including Phonecians and Scythians) and the Milesian invasion was origonaly dated to 504 B.C. Herdotus does record many Milesians planning to flee the city due to it's inevitable fall to Persia at this very time.
Genetic research suggests Milesian "myth" may not be so far-fetched. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Sykes#Blood_of_the_Isles —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.150.216.218 (talk) 06:33, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
Modern Genetics[edit]
this article needs to be updated The irish did come from spain — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:30A:2CA0:2FD0:8443:A139:F53E:2FDC (talk) 03:06, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
- Galicia is not the same as Spain, is not the same until recently Galicia Was isolated from the rest of Spain by its mountains. Galicia had contact with northern Spain as Asturias, Cantabria and the Basque Country, Galicia has more in common with Ireland than Spain (included Basques descended from the Galician). Translated Galicia means land of the Gaels --Bretema7 (talk) 22:44, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
- Irrelevant anyway until we find peer reviewed articles discussing the genetics of the Milesians, sources need to discuss the subject. Dougweller (talk) 06:07, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
- The Milesians have no genetics. They are and were an imaginary literary-political construct designed to combine all the noble families of Ireland into a single genealogy. If it's true that the Irish have genetic ancestors in the Iberian peninsula (genetics is very new, interpretation of the evidence is changing all the time, and the way it's reported in the media is oversimplified) that's a coincidence and has nothing to to with the Milesians. --Nicknack009 (talk) 08:55, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Galician King Breogan descendant[edit]
Breogán | _________________________|_________________________ | | Bile Íth | | Galam Lugaid (Míl) | _______________________|___________________ _____|_____ | | | | | | | | | Donn Eber Amergin Ír Colpa Arannan Éremón Eoinbric Mal Finn | | | | __________|_______ | ______________|____________ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Ér Orba Ferón Fergna Eber Muimne Luigné Laigné Palap Irial Riaglan Edaman | Fáith | | _____________|______________ | | | | | | | | Ebric Conmáel Eithrial Sithchenn Congal _______________|______ | | | | | | | | | | | Airtre Cearmna Sobhairce Eochaid Follach Mairtine Dáire | Faebar Glas | | | | _______|_______ | | | | | | | | | Art Nuada Mofemis Tigernmas Rothlan Eochaid | | | | | Étgudach Sedna 1 Glas Eochu Enboth Flann | | Mumu | Ruadh | | | | | Fiacha Rossa Énna Smirgull Ailill Finscothach | Airgdech | | | | | | Ollamh Roithechtaig Fiacha Fionn Fodhla | Labhrainne | ________|_____________________ | | | | | | | | | | Finnachta Slanoll Gedhe Cairbre Fer Aengus Eochaid | | Ollgothach | Arda Olmucada Apthach Fiacha Ailill | | | | Finnailches Bearnghal Labraid Cas Roitheachtaigh 1 | Clothach | | | | Bratha Muineamhón Dian | | | Fionn Faildeargdoid Sírna | | | Sirlám Cas Ailill | Cétchaingnech Olchaoin | | | Airgeatmhar Failbe Giallchaidh ________________________________| | | | | | | | | Fomor Finntan Deman Badarn Roan Nuadat | | | | | Finnfail | | | | | | Dub Cimbáeth Díthorba Áed Roitheachtaigh 2 Áedan | Ruad | Glas | | | | Sithrige Macha Mong Ruad Elim Simeon | Oillfinshneachta Breac | | Rudraige 2 Art ________|______________________________ Imleach | | | | | | Ginga Bresal Ross Congal Cas | | Bódíbad Ruad Clairinech | Breisrigh | | | | Capa Connra Fachtna Sedna 2 | | Fáthach | | | | Fachtna Éllim Duach | Finn | __________|_____________ | | | Cas Muireadach Enda | Bolgrach Dearg | ______________________| | | | | | Cas Fiacha Duach Lugaid Trillsech Tolgrach Temrach Iardonn | | ______|______ | | | | | | Amergin Duach Eochaid Conaing Eochaid | Ladhgrach Fiadmuine Begeaglach Uaircheas | | | | | | Conall Eochaid Lugaid Cernach Buadach Lámdearg | ______|______ | | | | | Irial Úgaine Badbchaid Art Glunmar Mor | | ____|_________________________ | | | | | Fiachna Lóegaire Cobthach Ailill Finnamnas Lorc Cóel Breg Finn | | | | Muireadach Ailill Meilge Eochaid (Fir Bolg) | Áine Molbthach | | | | | | | Finnchad Labraid Irereo Lugaid Rinnal | Loingsech | Laigde Dagarmag | | | | | Giallchaidh Ailill Connla Rechtaid Erndolb Fionn Bracan Cáem Rígderg | | | | | | Cathbad Aengus Ailill Cobthach Oiris | Ollamh Caisfhiaclach Cáem Eclonnach | | | | | Rochruide Bresal Eochaid Mog Corb Luaigne | Brec Ailtleathan | Laidcinn | | _________|_____________ | | | | | | | | | Mal Fergus Aengus Ederscél Fiacha Fer Corb Tat Fortamail Tuirmech Temrach Fer Mara | Tetmanach | | | | | | Fedlimid Enna Conall Ailill Adamair Dichun Forthriun Aignech Collamrach Érainn | Uairidnach | | | | | Crimthann Labraid Feradach Nia Rudraige Coscrach Lorc | Segamain | | | | | | Mog Art Blathacht Forga Innatmar Dubthach | | | | | Art Esamain Maine Lugaid Cairbre | Eamna | Luaigne Cinnchait | | | | Elloit Rogen Airndil Cairbre | Ruadh | Lusc | | | | Nuada Fionnloch Roithriun Duach Fullon | | Dallta Dedad | | | Feradach Fionn Triun Foglas ______|______ | | | | | Ailill Eochaid Eochaid Roisin Glas Feidlech Airem | | | | Fiacha Findemna Sin Foibric | _____|_____ | | | | Bresal Lugaid Degaidh Eochaid Brec Riab nDerg | | | | | | Lugaid Crimthann Iar Deitsin Loithfinn Nia Náir | | | | | | Sedna Feradach Ailill Dluthach Sithbac Finnfechtnach | | | | | Nuada Eogan Dáire Necht | | | | | Fergus Ederscel Fiatach Fairge | Finn | | | Rossa Conaire Fiacha Ruadh Mor Finnfolaidh | | Fionn Tuathal File Teachtmhar | | Conchobar Fedlimid Abradruad Rechtmar | | Mog Corb Conn | Cétchathach Cú Corb | Nia Corb | Cormac Gelta Gáeth | Fedlimid Firurglas | Cathair Mor — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bretema7 (talk • contribs) 00:36, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
Just a question[edit]
ResolvedWhat does it mean "The Gaels take the world above, while the Tuath Dé take the world below (i.e. the Otherworld) and enter the sídhe." ? My question is about "enter the sídhe". I am not a native English speaker, but my understanding is that the sídhe are the Little People, that is, the fairies. So what the verb "enter" mean in this case? It is not a place.... Thank you in advance, and sorry for a question that maybe is considered trivial by English speakers.--Dejudicibus (talk) 16:49, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
- The sidhe are the "mounds" - the mostly neolithic tombs the gods/fairies were believed to have lived in. The gods/fairies were the aes sidhe, or in modern Irish aos sí, the "people of the mounds". --Nicknack009 (talk) 17:08, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
- I've clarified this in the text. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 20:08, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Other research[edit]
We should probably include a short bit on later research, e.g. linguistic work connecting Ireland and Iberia, and genetic work that does likewise. I don't mean to lend legitimacy to the pseudo-history, but to clarify what the real connections between these two areas are vs. the medieval political fantasy ones. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 20:10, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- Only if the sources discuss the Milesians, if not, it's original research. Doug Weller (talk) 06:57, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
"Race"[edit]
I'm not up on the scholarship here, but certainly there's another term for what would be history's version of ethnicity or "national" membership, or whatever concepts existed at the time. In this way I'm saying that "race" would have been a placeholder for something else, since humans don't have subspecies. I have to think the language around Milesians has evolved in the years since they were described as a race. Manys (talk) 20:26, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
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