Talk:Gustav Mahler

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Featured articleGustav Mahler is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
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Current status: Featured article

anti-Semitism/antisemitism[edit]

There seems to have been a bit of a too-and-fro over this recently. FreeStateCosmos, rather than edit war, you need to discuss the matter here and explain why this article—written in British English—should ignore the spelling supported by the OED? Please discuss here, rather than continue to edit war. Thank you - SchroCat (talk) 15:36, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Want to contribute with sources:
https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/antisemitism/spelling-antisemitism
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/anti-semitism-or-antisemitism Grimes2 (talk) 15:46, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And? Just because some sources spell it differently, it doesn't mean all uses have to follow suit. - SchroCat (talk) 15:55, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
IHRA uses Antisemitism, JVL uses anti-Semitism. Grimes2 (talk) 16:04, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OED uses anti-Semitism too. Given the article is in BrEng, it seems sensible to keep to the spelling of that. Either way, that user has broken 3RR and been reported. - SchroCat (talk) 16:06, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Grimes2 (talk) 16:07, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree. FreeStateCosmos prays in aid an article that asserts that there is no such word as Semitism, which is doubtless true, but there undeniably is a word "Semitic", and the phrase under consideration here is "anti-Semitic". One of our leading authorities in Wikipedia is Smerus, author of Jewry in Music, published by the Cambridge University Press. I'd be keen to see his views on this point, if he cares to look in. Tim riley talk 16:50, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But the term Semitic refers to a group of languages. It was the 19th century Jew hater Willhelm Marr who established the use of the term as a signifier for Jews (most of whom actually spoke the European language Yiddish rather than the Semitic Hebrew). RolandR (talk) 15:46, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is incorrect. JVL, like most activists and scholars actually involved with this subject, uses the unhyphenated form. See, for instance, the JVL Statement of Principles, or the official statement JVL: allegations of being involved in or condoning antisemitism. RolandR (talk) 15:40, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, as has been discussed above, just because some sources have changed their spelling does not mean everyone has or that everyone has to. - SchroCat (talk) 17:06, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism FreeStateCosmos (talk) 17:06, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Again, so? WP is written in many varieties of English, and this article in British English used the spelling of the OED. If you could respond in sentences, rather than pointless URLs, it may improve the standard of discourse somewhat. - SchroCat (talk) 17:09, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is pointlessly aggressive. Please do click the URLs, and read the compelling arguments for using "antisemitism". That's all I can say. I had no idea this minor edit would lead to so much hostility. FreeStateCosmos (talk) 17:25, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Edit warring without discussion is pointlessly aggressive. Trying to explain to someone that different spellings are used by different countries or groups isn’t aggressive. Even after you were asked to stop edit warring and discuss, you continued reverting. Even after you were told of the edit warring report, you continued reverting. If that isn’t pointlessly aggressive, then I don’t know what is. - SchroCat (talk) 17:30, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pointlessly aggressive? This from an editor who has been persistently edit warring! Please! Passive aggression, anyone? And if you deign to read the article, FreeStateCosmos, you will see that "anti-Semitism" (or antisemitism) is not mentioned. The phrase in question is "anti-Semitic" and the argument that there is no such word as Semitism is irrelevant. Tim riley talk 17:35, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is more accurate: antisemitism. FreeStateCosmos (talk) 17:36, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just checking: can you actually read? The word "antisemitism" is not used, as you have repeatedly been told. Tim riley talk 17:38, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@RolandR: You have stated there is a consensus on this issue; could you please link to where that consensus was achieved? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:13, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There have been so many discussions about this, that I can't find the specific one in which I participated. But for example, see this Move discussion. And it is worth noting that since the most recent discussion, many reliable sources have adopted the unhyphenated form in preference to the hyphenated form. Significantly, Associated Press altered its influential style book in 2021[1]. Other outlets which have adopted this usage in recent years include the New York Times[2], the BBC[3], the United Nations[4] and Dictionary.com[5]. RolandR (talk) 16:01, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
After much searching through archives, I have found two[6][7] of the many lengthy discussions I mention (and there are several others), which I think clearly show a strong consensus in favour of use of the unhyphenated form. I would add that, since these discussions, many other bodies have changed their usage to drop the hyphen - notably Associated Press, which notes "We changed our style in 2021 to antisemitism, not anti-Semitism. The past style was based on common usage. But some say that could give credence to the idea that Jews are a separate race. A growing number of Jewish organizations and others have moved to the style antisemitism",[8], the New York Times, which wrote "We are dropping the hyphen and lowercasing the S, which is now the style of The Associated Press and is preferred by many academics and other experts. Those who favor antisemitism argue that the hyphenated form, with the uppercase S, may inadvertently lend credence to the discredited notion of Jews as a separate race"[9] and Dictionary.com, which states "The closed and lowercase spelling antisemitism is now the preferred form. Jewish groups have long preferred the single word spelling, and many style guides, including those of major publications, have also adopted it. While Semitic is a current linguistic term for a subfamily of Afroasiatic languages including Akkadian, Arabic, Aramaic, Ethiopic, Hebrew, and Phoenician, the spelling anti-Semite falsely implies prejudice against all of the diverse groups of people who speak any of these languages. However, that is not how antisemite is used. Rather, the “Semite” in antisemitism is a euphemism for “Jew,” meant to lend a scientific air to the racial grouping of all Jewish peoples based on an outdated pseudoscience of race".[10] The rest of the world is finally catching up with the usage by academics and activists involved in this field, and Wikipedia should not lag behind. RolandR (talk) 23:45, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
One of those discussions ended with no consensus, and the other is another discussion to do only with the title of the article on the topic. Conversely, your arguments seem to be in favour of preferring one over the other across Wikipedia - this simply isn't the venue for that kind of conversation. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:24, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

While researching this, I came across an apparently relevant book "Seeing Mahler: Music and the Language of Antisemitism in Fin-de-Siècle Vienna" by K.M. Knittel [11]. The author actually discusses in the introduction why they use the unhyphenated form of the word. RolandR (talk) 16:09, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Happily, the preceding editor's failure to point to a consensus is of no matter as the word to which s/he objects does not appear in the article, as has been pointed out several times. – Tim riley talk 18:54, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Which word does not appear in the article? Are we taking part in the same discussion? RolandR (talk) 23:06, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The word anti-Semitism/antisemitism does not appear in the article. You two were going back and forth about anti-Semitic/antisemitic.
Has there been a consensus established to prefer one over the other across Wikipedia, or was the consensus you referenced solely to do with the title of the article on the topic? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:57, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are currently 5 "anti-Semitic"s in the article. Johnbod (talk) 00:04, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is pedantic pettifoggery. The words antisemitism, antisemite and antisemitic quite clearly relate to the same phenomenon, share the same etymology, and are covered by the same multiple discussions - both on Wikipedia and in the world. To suggest that we need separate discussions and consensuses for each of these words is so mind-boggingly ridiculous that I refuse to give it serious consideration. RolandR (talk) 01:53, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say we need separate discussions, I simply answered your question. I would like to see an answer to mine though. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:17, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Quite so, and to repeat a point made previously with regard to Shmuel Almog's objection that there is no noun "Semitism", there certainly is an adjective "Semitic". Moreover, in rendering the attitude of Judaeophobes as a hyphenated and capitalised "anti-Semitism", the Oxford English Dictionary is following the lead of, among others, The Jewish Chronicle. It is ad rem to point out that the hyphenated and capitalised form is prescribed by the only other two dictionaries on my shelves: the Bloomsbury and Chambers. A distinguished Jewish musical scholar with whom I have had the privilege of working prefers the term "Judaeophobia" (capitalised as in our own Wikipedia article where it is given with the spelling "Judeophobia) to "anti-Semitism/antisemitism", and I think it in all respects more suitable. He writes, "as regards anti-Semitism I seek to limit use of this word to its strict late-nineteenth-century sense, when indeed the word was coined by Jew-haters to give a respectable, quasi-scientific cover to their reformulation of traditional Judaeophobia as a political movement dedicated to rescinding the civil rights that Jews had received..." – Tim riley talk 07:59, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Veganism and vegetarianism?[edit]

This talk page was previously listed under WP:WikiProject Veganism and Vegetarianism. I'm really not sure why that's the case as the article never brings up anything remotely related to these topics. Anyways, I've gone ahead and removed the banner. TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 18:51, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@TechnoSquirrel69, it's probably because he was a vegetarian when younger, see [12]. Although, I see it as rather inconsequential whether the project tag is included here or not. – Aza24 (talk) 19:00, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Aza24: Thanks for the link! Though it is a mildly interesting tidbit, I'm still unconvinced this article is really of interest to the WikiProject, and agree with you that it might not matter either way. I'll leave it as is unless a WikiProject member would like to revert me. TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 19:06, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Quote[edit]

The original quote is "I am thrice homeless, as a native of Bohemia in Austria, as an Austrian among Germans, and as a Jew throughout the world. Everywhere an intruder, never welcomed." I think the text using the part of the quote is changing the meaning of his words. He lived in Jihlava, where was a german speaking majority at the time (so called Jihlava language island), so he felt as an intruder almost only because of his jewish origin as in the whole world. Bohemia didn't very contribute to it (it was the first country in the world who acknowledged Jew nationality in the census, the situation of Jews was always above average compare to the rest of Europe). On the contrary in Vienna was a strong antisemitism and he was seen as a some czech Jew here, so twice intruder. 46.135.20.12 (talk) 23:25, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are you talking about the section Gustav Mahler#Family background? Mgnbar (talk) 00:10, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The source says: "Bohemia was then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire; Mahler's native tongue was German, and he ranked as an Austrian subject of Jewish descent. He was thus from the beginning affected by racial tensions: he belonged to an unpopular Austrian minority among Bohemians, and to an unpopular Jewish minority within the Austrian one. Throughout his life, he felt a sense of exile. He once said: 'I am thrice homeless, as a native of Bohemia in Austria, as an Austrian amongst Germans, as a Jew throughout the world. Always an intruder, never welcomed.'" I think the relevant section of the article accurately and succinctly represents the source. Tim riley talk 08:11, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]