Talk:Earl Browder

Error

The text reading, "In April 1950, Browder was called to testify before a Senate Committee investigating Communist activity. Questioned by Joseph McCarthy (D-Minn), Browder openly criticized the American Communist Party" is in error. Senator Joseph McCarthy was NOT a Democrat from Minnesota but a Republican from Wisconsin. The writer apparently confused the rabid anticommunist known as the progenitor of "McCarthyism" with the Minnesota Democrat who opposed President Lyndon B Johnson in the New Hampshire primary of 1968, Eugene McCarthy, no relation to "Tailgunner Joe". I made the necessary correction.LAWinans (talk) 17:26, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Audio recording?

Does anyone know where an audio recording of the debate mentioned in this article is avaible?

The text reads "led the CPUSA's tactic of expressing cautious support for the New Deal" in a context after 1940. This is a little bit late in time, seeing New Deal programs generally stem from the period before the 1937 recession. By 1940 many programs were not that popular anymore and international events overtook the public dialogue. perhaps that phrase should be moved up in time. Nobs01 19:59, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

June 6 edits

I added links to some of the articles referenced in the text, like the Duclous (sic) letter and the Shachtman debate. I compacted the Venona stuff into one paragraph chonologically placed within his tenure as general secretary. The article now ends with his death in 1973. I also added archival information and the audio link to the speech excerpt because it is interesting. I deleted the reference to 'entering the Democratic Party as a left-wing faction'. Its clear that the CPA was supporting Roosevelt, but not in any formal way from 'within the party'. American parties have very lax membership rules and they don't recognize factions. Anyone can speak and work as thought they are in the Democratic or Republician Parties (Lyndon LaRouche and David Duke, for example). I moderated, but did not eliminate, the sentence on McCarthites being proved right in interest of NPOV. DJ Silverfish 21:37, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nobs01

Nobs/Nobs01 appears to be burying a "soviet illegal apparatus" narrative into the body of the Browder text. The level of detail contained in this paragraph introduces allegations regarding individuals who appear out of the blue and would be better handled somewhere else.

In November 1943 Browder turned control of the Perlo group of Soviet spies over to Jacob Golos two months before his death and it subsequently was taken over by his girl friend, Elizabeth Bentley. Venona decrypt #588 April 29 1944 sent by Ishkak Akhmerov, head of Soviet illegal apparatus, from New York to Moscow stated that “for more than a year Zubilin (station chief of "Resident") and I tried to get in touch with Victor Perlo and Charles Flato. For some reason Browder did not come to the meeting and just decided to put Bentley in touch with the whole group. All occupy responsible positions in Washington, D.C.”

The sentence in quotes seems to contradict the first half. As a whole the sentences seem very disconnected. I suspect that if you were to cram in the detail necessary to explain who all these people were, it would be a reproduction of the Victor Perlo article, not a Browder biography.

During this period he became one of the KGB's most important spies in America, successfully recruiting dozens of operatives from amongst his associates.

Who "he"? Browder, Akhmerov, Zublin ("Resident"), Golos, "his girlfriend, Elizabeth Bentley", Perelo, or Flato?

Release of Cold War KGB files by the federal Russian government in the 1990s led to revelations that Browder actually was heavily involved as a go-between the KGB and the Communist Party USA, and that espionage accusations made against him by the McCarthyites were in part true.

You could leave this last sentence, inserting a link to Victor Perlo and have a much clearer article. DJ Silverfish 18:36, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

All valid criticism and it may perhaps be reduced in size for clarity.

During this period Browder successfully recruited dozens of operatives from amongst his associates for Soviet intelligence. In November 1943 Browder turned control of the Perlo group over to Jacob Golos and it subsequently was taken over by Elizabeth Bentley after Golos death. Venona decrypt #588 April 29 1944 from the KGB New York office states “for more than a year Zubilin (station chief) and I tried to get in touch with Victor Perlo and Charles Flato. For some reason Browder did not come to the meeting and just decided to put Bentley in touch with the whole group. All occupy responsible positions in Washington, D.C.”

may achieve the economy of space we are looking for. Point is, the direct Venona quote may be necessary to show his level of involvement in espionage activities; it was not one of mere passivity. Nobs01 18:57, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The revised paragraph is greatly improved. Thanks. DJ Silverfish 20:06, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

DJSilverfish: I would like to talk with you about the possibility of expanding the Earl Browder bio. I know it was presumptuos on my part to insert the covert evidence under "CPUSA Leadership", but I was trying to keep a timeline with the evidence. I didn't mean to interupt your hard work. It does seem out of place. There are many things I'd like to discuss, but here's a preliminary outline. Browder it appears, has three faces, (1) the public face as head of the CPUSA (2) a covert face running the secret apparatus (3) an international face in relation to the Comintern & Soviet Union. In writng the History of Soviet espionage in the United States it seems the 1920s & 1930's apparatus consists largely or Earl Browder, J. Peters & Jacob Golos. They are all at the center of it, and Browder particularly. Later it appears, some of the accused spies in the administration claim they thought they were stealing information for use by Earl Browder, not for transmission to the Soviet Union; whether this is true or not I'd like to establish, or at least to whom it might be applied (it may just be a convenient defense). Also, the Venona insertion could be used to back Browders claim of Communism with an American face, but there are more damning transcripts that come later. There is another interesting story here, the fact that the FBI in 1940 when investigating World Tourist was starring the espionage ring in the face & didn't know it (somewhat reminiscent of FBI failures prior 9/11) that has not been written about. But the big question right now is the murder of Juliet Poyntz in 1938 cause Jacob Golos & Joseph Katz almost certainly were involved. When the researcher encounters a situation of murder, one must proceed with caution before branding a person complicite; as well as take into consideration the sensitivities of surving victims family and descendents of the one is making such allegations about. If Browder had any foreknowledge of Poyntz murder, then his entire character & bio must be re-reviewed. (One can't claim the CPUSA was fighting Hitler in 1938 by killing Poyntz, etc). I propose perhaps moving the espionage info out the Leadership section and creating another==Secret apparatus==(tentative title) covering the period 1921-1943, which is what I'm working on right now. That doesnt cover all the possibilities, but I hope we can work together on it. Thanks. Nobs01 19:47, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Constant reference demands

OK, I give up. I've tried to expand the Browder bio to include the now thoroughly documented-evidence (not just from former KGB officer memoirs, not just from former Soviet agents, and not just from former colleagues, but also transcripts of official Soviet KGB files and VENONA decrypts) that Browder, his niece, and his younger sister faithfully served Soviet intelligence as a transmitter of information and as a recruiter of intelligence agents/sources. I've been supplying references for constant rewrites of my contributions, now up to one or two references every couple of sentences, so that this small bio now takes up lots and lots of pagewidth, and now reads like a Byzantine novel. But I'm done. If the spy chapter takes a dive in future b/c someone still thinks this stuff is in dispute, just go read the VENONA decrypts and the books by Vassiliev, Haynes, or other historians (together with the declassified Soviet memoranda) - it's all in there. -TIM 25 SEP 2006

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.240.243.207 (talk • contribs) 23:14, 25 September 2006 (UTC{{{3}}})

The VENONA references cite the five or six books repeatedly. Since these books are large and and the details referenced are so specific, casual researchers should not have to read the entire book to find the supporting reference. Since evidently editor 4.240.243.207 has access to the material, citing the page numbers, and the supporting quote, should not be too much of a burden. Inclusion of the supporting quote should also indicate whether or not the languate is a direct transcription of the source material.

Regarding the article's readability, I have repeatly broken out the microhistory of Browder's alleged espionage role from the broader narrative of his life. The interjection of such detail into a yet-to-be-fleshed-out account of the Popular Front period privleges the byzantine VENONA stuff over all other details. Until the narrative is filled in, detailed treatments of this side issue should be handled separately from the main narrative. Otherwise, editors will reduce Browder's biography to a blow-by blow account of the history of Soviet espionage in the United States.DJ Silverfish 20:02, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Signing edits

Please use the "quadruple ~" notation to sign edits, as per Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. It makes the attribution clearer.) DJ Silverfish 17:35, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

WTH is this, Senator?

"Browder is alleged to have been involved in constructing an underground branch of the CPUSA, called the secret apparatus. [15][16] This branch was intended to assist the Soviet Union in maintaining dominance of the CPUSA in policy issues..."

Holy Jesus. The CPUSA was not only dominant on policy issues in the 1930s – wow, it was maintaining its dominance. Were the Democrats catching up? Take a look at the source for this:

17^ Klehr, Harvey; Haynes, John E., and Igorevich, Fridrikh I. (1995). The Secret World of American Communism. Yale University Press. pp. ????. ""????""
18^ Klehr, Harvey; Haynes, John E., and Igorevich, Fridrikh I. (1995). The Secret World of American Communism. Yale University Press. pp. ????. ""????""

Whoa, whoa, whoa. What kind of page numbers are those...? As DJ Silverfish writes (some three years ago, in 2006),

"The VENONA references cite the five or six books repeatedly. Since these books are large and and the details referenced are so specific, casual researchers should not have to read the entire book to find the supporting reference. Since evidently editor 4.240.243.207 has access to the material, citing the page numbers, and the supporting quote, should not be too much of a burden. Inclusion of the supporting quote should also indicate whether or not the languate is a direct transcription of the source material."

Taking a look at the rest of the paragraph, I see that a "citation" of this sort is inserted on virtually every sentence, yet nowhere do we get the page numbers. What we get are more "???", "???", and "???"
I will be deleting the bogus claim that the CPUSA in the 1930s was in a Herculean struggle to...maintain...its...dominance over "policy" – Joe McCarthy, is that you – but I'm not quite sure how to deal with this. Since Wikipedia is a collectivist (if bourgeois) little thing, input would be appreciated. Meanwhile, POV tag. Way unbalanced and ridiculous. PasswordUsername (talk) 13:51, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Watch out, comrade, we will denounce you for frequenting 'bourgeois' websites to the Party. Or would, if there was anything much left of the Party. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.202.17.218 (talk) 07:18, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

All Right, Let's Get This Thing Cleaned Up

This is not a pissing contest between conservatives and liberals. The espionage section is improperly footnoted due to the lack of page numbers. Piling on 3 titles with no page numbers on each assertion does NOT fix the problem, it just makes things messier and less likely to get fixed. So I am BEING BOLD and pulling all that out and replacing it with CITATION NEEDED tags where I feel the footnote is needed.

I am not expressing doubt about Browder's involvement in espionage activities. He was. I am saying that this aspect of the article is controversial with some, clearly, and the case needs to be CORRECTLY DOCUMENTED. This means, please, cite your sources correctly—including page numbers in each and every instance.

I would further suggest that footnotes be made in the standard form for each case [ref>Author, Title, page.</ref] rather than using the shortcut for subsequent uses for the same source. It makes things hard to read and check and the savings in terms of editor time at the front or cleanliness at the back in the footnotes section are clearly not worth the mess it makes of the code. Just go long form with everything, it helps. Not to mention the fact that Messrs. Haynes and Klehr have written more than one book... Just list Author, Title, Page spelled out 11 times in a row if you have to.

Now as for POV, this has been blown out of proportion. Browder was a political leader, and that needs to be covered, and he was also tight with espionage, and that needs to be covered. Both things. I don't think the current presentation is all that bad—ONCE THE FOOTNOTES ARE FIXED.

Please don't revert to the previous mess, just dig out your Haynes and Klehr books and look up the appropriate page numbers for each citation. An hour or two and this multi-year whine-fest will be over.

Okay? Okay! Hike!!! —Tim Davenport /// Early American Marxism website /// Corvallis, OR Carrite (talk) 20:13, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Speech from 1947, Link?

Why can we link this speech by Earl Browder posted on youtube? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR8nqDkK8v0 It will actually give readers a chance to hear his voice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.189.13.211 (talk) 05:57, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

What about his wife?

I have learned he begot three bright sons that became Mathemaicians. Who was the mother ? Kitty Harris ? Is Kitty Harris an alias for Catherine Harrison that was said to have betrayed Browder with a report to the Kremlin ?

Read the book "Kitty Harris: The Spy with seventeen names", by Igor Damaskin. I don't think she had any children. Her cover was blown by Krivitsky and she may well have written a report for the Kremlin for taking her in. 58.174.193.2 (talk) 05:47, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

That book is very clear on the marriage between Earl Browder and Kitty Harris, I wouldn't call the marriage 'unconfirmed' as on Harris' page. Maybe someone should ask Igor Damaskin where he had it from. 2001:8003:A0B9:EF00:A179:4C25:38D7:9B53 (talk) 06:15, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Rewrite 2012

I've completed a fairly massive expansion. This is a big figure and there's still more work to do, but it's starting to get a little better. There was an UNDUE EMPHASIS flag up on the espionage material for the longest time; with the massive revision, I fell that the proportion of that section to the total story is now appropriate. There are still CITATION NEEDED flags showing; one of these days I'll dig out Venona and do it myself, unless Nobs1 feels energetic in the meantime. Soviet intelligence didn't use CPUSA as its primary recruiting arm after the early 1930s, understanding full well that the party was heavily penetrated by FBI informants, and it would be a mistake to think Browder was the Supreme Master Kingpin of Soviet intelligence in the USA. He was no such thing. When someone came forward with information for the party/Soviets, he put them in touch with Golos, who in turn kept Browder in the loop of the information he was himself sending. There were parallel networks and channels. Browder absolutely was complicit, but his first and foremost function was as a (or the) top leader of CPUSA. Carrite (talk) 23:12, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

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