Talk:Supremacism

Don't merge with 'triumphalism;' just retain the cross-reference.

As I pointed out over in the 'triumphalism' entry, they are truly two different types of things. 'Supremacism' is a term that is reserved for articulated, conscious doctrines. Supremacism also has an integral political nature, reflected in this entry's tight focus on the entitlement to certain rights as a defining feature of supremacist doctrines. Supremacism definitely belongs in the realm of political dogma or doctrine.

'Triumphalism,' on the other hand, is most frequently an unarticulated--even unconscious--assumption or attitude. It may be, but is not necessarily associated with any political course of action or goal. When we speak of triumphalism, we are discussing a sociological or psychological phenomenon.

In addition, 'Supremacist' is a badge of honor among true supremacists; they willingly describe themselves as supremacists. In contrast, 'triumphalism' is an observer's category. It is an adjective used by some to characterize the actions or attitudes of others--often meant to imply some measure dysfunctional delusion. No one labels him or herself a 'triumphalist;' no one explicitly advocates to increase triumphalism within his or her own group.

Crips and Bloods supremacist Groups?

Is it accurate to list the crips and Bloods aong the list of supremacist groups? to my knowledge the crips and blood are almost never refered to as a black suppemacist groups. Shouldn't then hispanic gangs be included in this list as well? or asian gangs? just because a certain race dominates a gang does not automatically make it a suppremacist group. If no further information can be provided i think they should be removed.

--The Crips is a street gang which originated in Los Angeles, California in the late 1960s. During the early 1970s, the gang grew and branched out to other parts of Los Angeles County. These new subsidiary or realigned existing gangs were known as sets, and they used the term Crips in their individual gang name.--

exert taken fron know-gangs.com there is no mention of the Crips being a suppremacist gang.

-The gang is largely composed of African Americans, but is multiracial in many cities (e.g. New York), where "satellite" Crip gangs are present. The gang has an intense rivalry with the Bloods. They are also known to feud with Chicano gangs.-

Taken form wikipedia article on crips. i gues the crips are a multiracial black supremacist group.

Phobias in See Also section?

Since a phobia is not necessarily a sign of supremacism, should phobia-related See Also links be in here?

Antisemitism

@User:GenoV84 Hi. I'm not sure what "newcomer" means, but I have been editing Wikipedia for years. I previously added notices to the talk pages for the Judaism and Jewish History WikiProjects regarding the bias and antisemitism within this article. The article as it exists promotes anti-Jewish falsehoods, such as that Judaism is a proselytizing religion. Noahides are simply not converts to Judaism. The article also presents the views of certain individuals as if they are neutral and inarguable facts, rather than opinions. Three of the sources are simply the opinions of Rachel Feldman or reference her opinions. The fact that the section inserts terms such as "goy" and "gentile" for no reason and without context is shocking, the sort of thing I normally see from neo-Nazis and white supremacist ideologues. The claim that non-Jews are "usually referred to as "Gentiles" or goyim" (referred to by whom, I might ask?) is a claim without any source. The section needs to be rewritten to avoid these glaring problems. These are serious flaws. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:19, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

That part of the article is very poorly written, though not all your criticisms are valid. "Proselytization" does not mean "proselytization to become Jews", it means "proselytization to become Noahides". I removed the word. I also removed the word "goyim", even though it is the most common Hebrew word for non-Jews. Also, Rachael Feldman is highly qualified and has a book on the subject soon coming out with Rutgers University Press. In particular, her journal article is a fine source. Further criticism should focus on whether the text follows the sources, not on whether you like it. Zero^talk 08:23, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

@Bohemian Baltimore: I don't know how much time you have been here on Wikipedia, but deleting well-sourced, topically relevant informations with reliable references as you did ([1], [2], [3], [4], [5]) because you personally don't like the content of those sources qualifies as WP:DISRUPTIVE and possibly as an attempt to WP:CENSORSHIP. Writing down what the academic, reliable references and the Jewish–Israeli newspaper Haaretz state is not a "flaw", it's simply what we are supposed to do here on this project. I suggest you to check the cited academic sources before opening a section titled "Antisemitism" against me, which could be considered a violation of the WP policy WP:AGF and also as a form of personal attacks, considering that I have contributed to many Judaism-related articles on Wikipedia over the years (for example, see the articles Elohim, God in Judaism, Hebrew Bible, Yahwism, Géza Vermes, Emanuel Tov, Kabbalah, Antisemitism in Islam, etc.). GenoV84 (talk) 09:45, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

There is no "personal attack", nor an assumption of bad faith, nor an accusation "against you" that you are antisemitic. That seems like an assumption on your part. If that is the impression I gave, I apologize. The text itself is deeply flawed, inflammatory, and misleading. In doing so, this conveys antisemitism to the reader - regardless of who wrote the text or why. It badly needs context and nuance to avoid conveying harmful notions of what Jews believe. This can be done. It can be mentioned that the entire section is based around Rachel Feldman's views (including the Haaretz article that also mentions her). Currently she's not mentioned. The "proselytize" language should be avoided because it causes confusion for the lay reader who may not be familiar with Judaism's intricacies. The claim that (Jews?) "typically" refer to non-Jews as "goyim" is lurid and baseless. I'm also concerned that the casual no-context language about "racism" and "racial superiority" may falsely convey to the lay reader the notion that Jews are a race. Jews are not a race. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 21:26, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Those Jewish readers and non-Jewish readers who are knowledgeable about Judaism and halakha may understand these finer distinctions, but that may not be the case for the general Wikipedia readership. In the interest of clarity, and to avoid promoting misconceptions about Judaism, I think we should just avoid the "proselytism" language altogether. I'm not questioning Feldman's scholarship, but I am questioning why an entire section is based around her views but never mentions her. The paragraph about "Jewish supremacism" mentions Ilan Pappé and Joseph Massad. What does "most common" or "typically" mean here? The article conveys a baseless, unsourced idea that it is the norm for Jews to refer to non-Jews as "goyim", which is dubious and irresponsible at best. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 21:43, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you about the attribution of this academic research on Noahidism to Rachel Feldman, and I restored the latest changes performed by the editor Zero0000 ([6]), which had removed the term "goyim" from the section on Jewish supremacism ([7]). Anyway, Feldman's research doesn't convey the entire section on Jewish supremacism, only the second paragraph; the first one about Jewish supremacism is focused on the definitions and examples provided by Ilan Pappé and Joseph Massad, while the third one is focused on the religio-political ideology of the Religious Zionist Party.

The concept of race is a form of human categorization, scientists know that races don't exist. However, I would also point out to the very first pages of Feldman's research on the Noahide community in the Philippines (2018); she reports that the modern Noahide movement was founded by Orthodox Jewish and Religious Zionist rabbis from Israel in the 1990s, who have decidedly instructed the Filipino Noahides to believe that they are racially inferior to Jews and are forbidden from reading Jewish scriptures and performing Jewish rites and customs, as well as to support their messianic, supremacist movement in order to rebuild the third Jewish temple in Jerusalem:

"Today, nearly 2,000 Filipinos consider themselves members of the ‘‘Children of Noah,’’ a new Judaic faith that is growing into the tens of thousands worldwide as ex-Christians encounter forms of Jewish learning online. Under the tutelage of Orthodox Jewish rabbis, Filipino ‘‘Noahides,’’ as they call themselves, study Torah, observe the Sabbath, and passionately support a form of messianic Zionism. Filipino Noahides believe that Jews are a racially superior people, with an innate ability to access divinity. According to their rabbi mentors, they are forbidden from performing Jewish rituals and even reading certain Jewish texts. These restrictions have necessitated the creation of new, distinctly Noahide ritual practices and prayers modeled after Jewish ones. Filipino Noahides are practicing a new faith that also affirms the superiority of Judaism and Jewish biblical right to the Land of Israel, in line with the aims of the growing messianic Third Temple Movement in Jerusalem."

GenoV84 (talk) 23:13, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

This is a run on sentence from hell:

"However, these religious Zionist and Orthodox rabbis that guide the modern Noahide movement, who are often affiliated with the Third Temple movement, expound a racist and supremacist ideology which consists in the belief that the Jewish people are God's chosen nation and racially superior to non-Jews, and mentor Noahides because they believe that the Messianic era will begin with the rebuilding of the Third Temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem to re-institute the Jewish priesthood along with the practice of ritual sacrifices, and the establishment of a Jewish theocracy in Israel, supported by communities of Noahides."

It is also brazenly biased. This is a viewpoint. As it is someone's opinion, it should be articulated as such. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 22:41, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

As you can see, these informations are already attributed to Rachel Z. Feldman and Ilany Ofri from the Israeli newspaper Haaretz througout the article. You are free to believe that these Jewish authors and scholars are brazenly biased against other Jews if you want, but I think that it wouldn't make any sense. GenoV84 (talk) 15:41, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

@Bohemian Baltimore: Once again, you have deliberately deleted the aforementioned content with reliable references due to your own personal bias ([8]), accusing all the authors of those sources, wich are Jewish and Israeli academics, of being "White supremacists". Your statement in the edit summary regarding those sources and their respective authors is ridiculous and laughable, to say the least. Your total incompetence regarding the topic of Jewish supremacism cannot be denied. GenoV84 (talk) 10:37, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

@Bohemian Baltimore: Remember: Wikipedia is not censored. GenoV84 (talk) 10:43, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

@GenoV84 This was so long ago, I had to go back for another look. Wikipedia indeed isn't censored. Wikipedia also isn't composed of bogus information. The claim that some Jews hold a "supremacist view that pure blood jews should not mix with non jews, whom they consider inferior" is bunk. The idea of "pure blood" is not a concept within Judaism, nor do any of the sources claim this. A Jewish convert who has no "Jewish blood" (I put it in quotations, because there's no such thing) is permitted to marry someone born Jewish with Jewish ancestry. Likewise, a born-Jewish child of two converts who nevertheless doesn't have any "Jewish blood" can also marry born Jews with Jewish ancestry. This is misinformation. It is not "censorship" to remove unsourced and baseless propaganda from Wikipedia. The sentences I removed are simply false. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 11:03, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

@GenoV84 Reviewing the information added by User:Calrrkekek, I think the information can stay except for the last sentence, which should be removed. For clarification, when I said "white supremacist" I was referring to the now-banned user who had "kek" in their username and made inflammatory edits about Jews. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 11:20, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Alright, thank you for the clarification. GenoV84 (talk) 15:18, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

@GenoV84 So you are okay with removing this unsourced sentence?: "This view is according to the supremacist view that pure blood Jews should not mix with non-Jews, whom they consider inferior." Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 13:16, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

If it is unsourced, it definitely should be removed. GenoV84 (talk) 15:04, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

References
References

Anglo-Saxonism in the 19th century

Any objections to adding a link to this page under racial supremacism: further information? Jen nia mondo (talk) 23:44, 1 April 2024 (UTC)