Talk:National Socialist black metal

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New Sections[edit]

New Sections: Intend to add information about the NSBM controversy among BM listeners in "NSBM in the Broader Black Metal Scene." In "National Socialism in Early Black Metal" will probably cite Burzum's "My Journey to the Stars", Darkthrone's "Jewish Behavior" and "Aryan Black Metal" stuff, etc. Suggest that if someone actually comes along and wants to add something that they do something along those lines. --68.6.244.91 06:03, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Deletions[edit]

About my edit: Eliminated the bit about about NSBM bands lacking an understanding as to the true meaning of "Aryan" (Criticism of Nazi useage of the term belongs in the entry about Aryans itself) Also eliminated "Some believe that Christianity originated as a Jewish conspiracy to control Aryans to push their Zionist agenda forward." I think it should stay out unless someone can actually produce a source. I'm not an expert on NSBM but I've yet to hear the anti-christian thing put this way. Few more general attempts at improvement. --68.6.244.91 05:46, 24 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That's actually straight out of Nazi rhetoric. Most of them hated Christianity and endured it for practical reasons. Nietzsche also circumspectly refers to it as a Judean religion. www.anus.com 03:27, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Burzum[edit]

Burzum's Black Metal albums aren't NSBM, altough his latter works (mostly electronic) could be called NS music. They are, however, not BM and thus Burzum can't be called NSBM music.

- Burzum's Black Metal albums aren't NSBM indeed. As i said beneath, Varg claimed to not even be socialist on a national level, so he cannot be linked to NSBM. I believe, however, in the period he called himself a "nazi" (which he later claimed was a politcally incorect term to use for his ideas). His "Ambient" keyboard albums are more related to his "heathen", or rather, Odalistic ideas. They are not National Socialistic! refernce: A Burzum Story: "The Nazi Ghost" Darksteel 14:19, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I very much disagree. On the first album, 'Burzum' (self-titled), the lyrics "War between the races" can be found on the song 'My Journey to the stars'. Simply because the music isn't filled lyrically with mindless slogans, doesn't mean such music wasn't made to represent a certain ideology. Burzum is probably the founder of the NSBM genre. Nagelfar 04:06, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
You need to give a better example than that one. The phrase appears at the end of the song, and the other lyrics have no such content. My interpretation is more of a general chaotic misanthropic feeling there at the end. It says: "Darkness, Hate and Winter Rules the Earth when I Return, War Between Races, A Goal Is Reached, Chaos, Hate". Lots of hate, but quite unfocused ;) --Unsound 17:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

- Burzum may very well have inspired the NSBM genre, but that will not say it's one of the founders. Varg has said in his article on A Burzum story: "The Nazi Ghost": (reference):

I have also experienced that most of the people supporting me or what I stand for are so-called "nazis" - while almost everybody else has just condemned me and then boycotted me and everything I have done. What makes me different from the "nazis" are basically three things; unlike them I am not socialistic (not even on a national level), I am not materialistic and I believe in (the ancient Scandinavian!) democracy.

As you can see, he is not a socialist (and not even in a national way), and thus not a nazi. I will not say he doesn't interpretent Odalism in a racist way. He doesn't want to mix with other "colored" people. He says he wants to stick to his culture etc. It is not because he makes a song called "War between the Races" that he has to be a nazi. Some people need to draw a line between racism and Nazism. Also the reason why he made his BM is to boycot the Death metal scene. reference: A Burzum Story: "The Nazi Ghost" Darksteel 14:19, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The flaw in this argument is that whatever it's problems, socialism is not the same as National Socialism, a fact that Hitler himself expounded on repeatedly (see his comments in Mein Kampf about socialism. National socialism owes more to Prussian socialism than Marx). All Nazis and neo Nazis despise socialism. In fact, socialists in Germany were some of the first sent to the camps (see https://www.britannica.com/story/were-the-nazis-socialists). Socialism and Nazism are mutually exclusive, not inclusive for both economic and cultural reasons, therefore Varg's statement is disingenuous, as any student of history or politics would know.

I found page www.nbsm.org where burzum is listed as one of bands. 04:59, 08 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.124.69.174 (talk)

The fragment "war between the races" is most definitely inspired by the works of J.R.R. Tolkien. In case you didn't know, his stories are usually based on fantasy worlds with different races, including humans, elves, orcs etc. Therefore, I am convinced that he is alluding to these races, and not the ones of todays humans. Vikernes has stated in interviews that he was inspired by such works as the ones of Tolkien in the beginning of Burzums creation.

Let's not forget that Burzum's first works were produced al Deathlike Silence Prod., Euronymous' label. Euronymous was member in the most radical communist party in Norway, so Varg's first albums can't be labeled as NS.

I agree, and besides, the NSBM comminity may create music like Black Metal, the scene is totally different and these differences need to shown, and thus, the articles NSBM and Black Metal should be seperated. 80.57.77.199 16:45, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Euronymous also practiced in a room decked out in both Communist and Nazi flags. www.anus.com 03:27, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Euronymous maybe a WWII hobbyist, semi-historian or at least an interested of it or he might be a National-Bolshevik. 80.57.77.199 16:45, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to add to these comments, that the claim that Burzum founded NSBM or even makes NSBM seems to be based solely on circumstantial assumption or are backed by dead links to media with no apparent link to the metal scene with any knowhow of black metal or the themes presented in Burzum's music. There's also a large difference between racism and national socialism. Labelling something as national socialism solely on a few quotes gives this article very little credibility, particularly since as the article states his work doesn't involve and national socialist themes whatsoever. Also as quoted within these comments, Vikernes specifically distances himself from national socialism and clarifies the only thing he and NS have in common is they "embraced our Pagan religion as our blood-religion and they rejected Judeo-Christianity as Jewish heresy". The claims made in this article seem completely baseless and absurd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.210.111.184 (talk) 22:22, 25 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I´d like to add: Even the Wikipedia article about Burzum does not have the category National Socialist black metal musical groups Quote: "Although Vikernes is known for his political views, he does not use Burzum to promote those views. Burzum has never played live and Vikernes says he has no intention of doing so." Therefor Burzum is not NSBM. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Burzum#NSBM_allegations --Serhayn (talk) 16:36, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Questions[edit]

Though NSBM is different from the Black metal scene, it is still a subgenre right? Shouldn't the template be Black Metal instead of just Metal?

how can a nationa socialist be anti christianity? i mean, the church may not be the best thing of he world but it's a important weapon to destroy jews.

I'm glad I can find intelligent thoughts on this page... marnues 06:01, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't Metal music be considered degenerate art by Nazis? It is rather atonal and would be traced back to what Hitler would regard as a negroid form of music. Therefore I can't believe that these people are legitimate National Socialists. Racists, perhaps and perhaps they admire Hitler, but they don't seem to have Nazi art values.

If you want to get down to it, NSs are not nazis. They are tied to NS of 30's and 40's Germany through more general philosophy than any incredible love of the word of Hitler. Besides, there still plenty of people who trace the roots of rock purely to European folk and forget about the whole blues thing. Plus metal itself is a predominantly white form of music. marnues 01:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Who traces rock to European folk music? Tuf-Kat 02:31, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Anymore, mostly people who can't stand to think the music they love has any ties to African culture. Though it would be difficult to say European music isn't an influence. marnues 04:03, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

??NSBM??[edit]

unusual to find this here, because NSBM isnt even an official black metal subgenre. whether you like what i am about to say or not, i suggest this page to be deleted, because it is just a propaganda name used long ago during the black metal hype, as the media wanted everyone to be scared of black metal, saying it not only promotes satanism (which it does) and nazism (which doesnt). true, there are nazi bands out there, but they are not black metal, and do not play black metal music, whether it would be the lyrical or the musical style. it should be deleted because it isnt an offical genre, and pretty much every band in this nsbm list has no popularity, whether it'd be mainstream or in the metal underground. it is only known of through the nazi music underground. in my opinion, if this page wont be deleted, it should be put in a seperate page only, which specifies on nazi music in general, because this is not black metal. take this seriously please, as im not just some guy who doesnt like nsbm, im coming from a neutral perspective. Okram 09 (talk) 08:27, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You could always try and get it deleted I suppose, but given the huge amount of coverage the subgenre has received it would almost certainly get speedily kept. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 17:33, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

BDSM?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.154.28.73 (talk) 20:52, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Let me start off by saying how great it is to have a chance to discuss 2 topics that i somewhat accel in, mostly regarding NS in a historical understanding, and even modern adaptations or ideologies that root from NS. I am also quite an active member of the BM community online and personally love the music. 

 So i guess ill begin my official response by covering a few of the aforementioned claims and opinions. Lets start with the "NSBM isnt even an actual subgenre" statement. There are actually a few reasons why that statement is not only inaccurate, but it displays the ignorance of the author. As im sure most of us know, Black metal itself is a subgenre that literally umbrellas other subgenres, and any type of music that even remotely resembles the style that is 'Black Metal', can and usually is considered a branched subgenre. For example: Traditional pagan black metal (Burzum is a good example) vs Satanic Black metal (Mayhem), while the two styles or sounds are clearly separately distinguished, you can also clearly recognize both styles as a type of black metal, therefor they are both separated into two different subgenres. NSBM is no exception to that rule whether you like it or not. And i know political correctness and feelings are primary focus points for the left, but unfortunately, facts actually dont care, nor do i.

NSBM has evolved into something brilliant. They have taken the overall style of BM and quite literally adjusted it to fit their particular theme. And did it quite well, might i add. Examples of NS black metal would be: Goatmoon, Wolfkrieg, Nattfog, Sunwheel, J*w Juice, Nokturnal Mortem, Clandestine Blaze, Capricornus, Dark Fury and a long list of other great and talented black metal bands or projects. I have come accross a few bad apples in the NSBM subgenre that were really just.... Noise. But that can be said for every subgenre within the BM umbrella. 

 Another point i should cover is how well NSBM adapts to all BM styles while still holding onto that very extreme and aggressive sound, using riffs and drumming that make you feel like your in a warzone. Ive heard NS incorporate DS style, Symph, and my favorite style duo of all- Atmospheric NSBM. This makes NS one of the most diverse subgenres under the BM umbrella for the simple but brilliantly executed reason that instead of this particular subgenre bearing a title that describes its sound or its style, it bears a title that describes a theme. A political theme in this particular case. So that still is classified as a subgenre due to its distinguishable overall sound and style that differs from all other BM, but i must point out, the subgenre was also created with the ability to be an umbrella subgenre of its own by using a thematically descriptive name, which to me is brilliant and leaves room for so many creative sub-themes or sounds.

So in conclusion, and i think i have presented enough factual data, explanations and examples, NSBM IS INDEED a subgenre of BM. Plus i dont know how you or anyone else can tell a group of bands that they arent allowed to be a subgenre of black metal or any genre/subgenre for that matter. Just because your political/religious ideologies may differ from the ideologies of a BM band, doesnt make that band any less BM than they actually are. They are the artists that are making the music so im pretty sure they are much more qualified when it comes to labeling themselves under the proper subgenre, than you are. 

 I must also address another statement you made that claims "Black metal promotes satanism". There are a few problems with that statement and let me address them properly, to maybe play my hand at putting a stop to this whole "stereotyping of black metal" issue that is more common than id like it to be. Black metal, was NOT established to promote satan. It was not established based on the ideologies of satanism. It was not established with the intention of using satan as a mascot or theme. In fact, Satan had no hand in the start of BM. The original Black Metal bands, before greedy record labels and venue owners got their hands on the scene, was created for a few reasons, i will state 2 of them with explanations.

1. To counter the death metal scene and its "conforming" ideologies, its guidelines on what was and wasnt death metal and its religious content (and i dont mean Christian). Members of various Death metal bands departed from the DM scene and formed various bands to create a new style within metal subgenre, marking an extremely important and game changing point in history for metal music, creating something that would prove to be ever expansive, always evolving and bringing fresh ideas and sounds to the scene so there was always something new being released that was easily distinguishable from the last band/album, that was later dubbed "Black Metal". 2. To protest the church and its rapid-expanding population and all beliefs that stem from it. All ideas and characters that are derived from abrahamic religions. That includes satan. So while you are semi on the right track when it comes to your statement about the portrayal of BM in the news as a protest against BM, but those particular news portrayals mixed with record labels owned by the elite opposition are what gave birth to the Satanic BM scene and pushing that nonsensical ideology that plays as a recruiting tool and a distraction from real life topics that are relevant to current events. It is even commercially adaptable (as seen by various bands such as Behemoth, Dimmu Borgir, Ghost, and even examples of BM bands, that have seen semi commercial success) and the formula and pattern seems to be: The more commercially successful or popular in the mainstream, the more satanic it gets, even if on a subliminal level. Thats all for a reason. Just food for thought. Anyways, thanks for reading. I hope this clears up any common confusions or misconceptions of BM, potentially held by the reader. P.S. "Pagan" originally was to describe ancient religions/beliefs that predate Abrahamic religions. Heinrich Heðenson (talk) 06:31, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Articles for Deletion debate[edit]

This article survived an Articles for Deletion debate. The discussion can be found here. -Splashtalk 00:14, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Keep this article alive Heinrich Heðenson (talk) 06:34, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Famous Bands[edit]

If a band isn't famous enough to have a wikipedia entry, it isn't famous enough to be on this list. Other more popular genres might not have this distinction, but here it works wonderfully. marnues 08:54, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why? People obviously look up the list to see if a band is NSBM or similar. Darksteel 15:55, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a directory in that sense, however. - Tiswas(t) 14:04, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Band list[edit]

This is starting to turn into a list. If the list is important, consider making a wikipedia list, with a link from this article to that list. Also, the current list should be shortened to the most notable bands. The first band to be in this genre would be a smart choice, and the ones with the most success. I am going to tag this article for clean up, also, because of the list.-- ¢² Connor K.   13:06, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I removed Satanic Warmaster and Ad Hominem from the list, neither of these bands support NS ideologies although both band are extremely racist and do have lyrical themes that would lead them to be placed in the NSBM scene. Satanic Warmaster stated in a 2003 interview with Terrorizer that they were not NS and that it was a "common misconception" that they were. Ad Hominem states on their official Myspace: "DO NOT WRITE IF : You are not of european descent / You are into any kind of positive religion or politics / You are into "14 words" crap, loving life and believing in white man's rebirth / You are a degenerated scumbag metalhead just finding AH cool (for sure no one will recognize himself here!!)". As a side note I hope the irony of Ad Hominem's name becomes apparent when this is taken into account.


- while an openly racist act, Arghoslent play nothing like black metal, and so cannot be called NSBM. They should not be on an nsbm list


- Astrofaes seem not to be NSBM, but only use Slavonic nationalist poetry as a base for their lyrics. They should be removed from the list.

- I deleted the bands that are not NSBM or that not have a source to prove it. 88.70.175.121 00:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Strange sentence[edit]

"...NSBM might sound not much different from other metal sub-genres".

I don't understand this sentence fully. Is it meant to say "other BLACK metal sub-genres"? Surely even the avarage metal listener would be able to hear quiet a huge difference between NSBM and say Sepultura, Alice Cooper, Metallica or even "industrial" metal like Nine Inch Nails....? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.100.14.48 (talk) 12:21, 17 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Satanic Warmaster is not NSBM[edit]

I disagree with the person who tagged Satanic Warmaster as a NSBM band when there lyrics focus on Facist Occultism and not Nazi ideologies. There are main differances between fascism and nazism. Explore the topics more clearer. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ilirik666 (talk • contribs) 02:47, 3 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Sort of OT, but still...[edit]

Not that it matters for purposes of this article, but Heydrich was not "head of the gestapo". Well, he was, kind of, but that is like saying the President of the US is the top postal official. Technically it is true (in the sense the President of the US can fire the Postmaster General, and Heydrich could fire the Head of the Geheimestaatspolizei), but it kind of minimizes the person's title. Heydrich was head of the RSHA (Reichsicherheithauptamt, Head Office of Reich Security) which contained the Geheimestaatspolizei("Gestapo"), Sicherheitdeinst (Heydrich's previous command before the RSHA was formed), and Kriminalpolizei (Kripo).

In fact, to be technically exact, Müller was the head of the Gestapo, and Heydrich was his boss. So, I know it is way off topic, but I am going to make a slight alteration and change Heydrich from head of the Gestapo to head of the RSHA within the SS, which is what he really was. (After he was the head of the SD within the SS.)

Sorry, forgot to tack some tildes onto my last comment, so here goes: 76.100.205.82 02:59, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply] 

-You can find a lot of NSBM bands in Last.fm: THE URL is: http://www.lastfm.es/group/National+Socialist+Black+Metal/connections  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.126.129.68 (talk) 06:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Neo-nazi?[edit]

I think so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.211.47 (talk) 07:11, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Slight edit[edit]

Apologies for the slight edit with rationale. I removed the sentence stating that NSBM is regarded as an ideology not a subgenre, as it is impossible to play black metal in a National Socialist way. The rationale was two-fold: firstly, it's an unsourced and potentially POV statement; secondly, there is considerable confusion as to the distinction between ideology and subgenre... for example, people seem to get upset by including "unblack" metal bands on the List of black metal bands, despite the fact that the difference in styles is purely ideological. To maintain consistency we should adopt a consensus opinion on matters like this. My tuppence is that ideology / lyrical content is actually a fairly important part of what makes a genre (or subgenre) a genre (or subgenre). Anyway, I'll leave it for now, but regardless of consensus it needs a decent source, as I reckon it's a pretty contentious (maybe even OR) statement to make. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

November 2008[edit]

November 22 2008 AYPS: Extensively rewrote entry. Removed anti-NSBM sentiment. Attempted to clarify what NSBM is, along with some examples. Attempted to clarify confusion surrounding bands that are wrongly perceived as being NSBM. One can be a White Supremacist and not a National Socialist. One can flaunt National Socialist symbols and not support an ounce of White Supremacy. Examples, Graveland, Hate Forest, Darkthrone, Marduk. Burzum is problematic as there are too many conflicting statements, most of which have been made by Varg Vikernes himself. Removed section relating to NSBM and the broader Black Metal scene. One reference to Gardell's Gods of the Blood does not indicate whether NSBM is or is not a minority in the scene. Removed section relating to NSBM and the broader White Power movement. The late William Pierce of the National Alliance does not constitute the views of an entire movement. Ammended links. The Pagan Front is no longer "The Hammer of National Socialist Black Metal", it is currently "Heathen Metal Militia". You will note that Graveland was not listed on that site until after this change. NSBM.org is outdated, not being updated since 2006. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.51.165.187 (talk) 09:56, 22 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's little point rewriting an article in its entirety if you're not going to use even a single source, so please refrain from adding POV and/or OR information. A couple of other (more minor) points... genres are not capitalised, so it is "black metal" and not "Black Metal", and there is no reason whatsoever to simply add lists of albums by non-notable bands (see WP:MUSIC) that you happen to like and/or think are important... having said all that, the article as it stands still needs more references, but the version I've reverted to is still far superior. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 15:04, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree completely with Blackmetalbaz. ~Asarlaí 20:53, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Judging by the previous entry on the article, you are hardly any authority on the subject. Learn to accept that which is superior to you, and the world will become a much better place.
Please read WP:CIVIL. And please sign your posts with four tildes, just so we can keep track of just who's being rude :) Either way, if you disagree with another editor's work, then feel free to contribute your superior authority, using reliable sources to back up your claims. Oh, and one last thing... it helps to keep talk pages understandable if you could add comments in the appropriate place; this generally means directly below the person you're addressing, not at the top of a page. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 09:36, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

January 2009[edit]

We appear to have another rash of OR editing on this page. I appreciate that the whole article is a horrible mess anyway, but I am unconvinced that unsourced statements along the lines of "X is generally seen as Y within the scene" (even if this is true) are helpful to the article. This is a general plea to people to not add material to this, or any other article, without sources. This comment brought to you by no sleep and frustration at anonymous editors misunderstanding the difference between truth and verifiability. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 14:23, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Editing and improving the article[edit]

I have changed the article a bit, talked to Blackmetalbaz (see their user talk page) and planned to include information from the German article, which is longer and sourced. All others be informed that I use an access with a static IP adress and can be reached via its user talk page without any problems, but am not the only one to use it. --132.187.3.26 (talk) 13:12, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good, I'll see if I can help out a bit. Great care must be taken when talking about Christianity in Nazi Germany, as relations were largely strategic and Hitler was opposed to conventional Christianity. Dark Prime (talk) 15:47, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I know we must take care, but we should not forget that there were Protestant christians like those mentioned who supported Hitler, and Christian streams in National Socialism (see Positive Christianity) as well as pagan and occult tendencies, like Rosenberg, Himmler and the Thule Society. If you could also reference the opposition of the artists you mentioned, you would improve the article a lot. I remember an interview with Emperor Magus Caligula stating he was against Nazism but found positive aspects in it (with no further details), which can either mean he spoke thoughtlessly or worse; unfortunately, I might look for that one when I find the time to do so. And Erik Danielsson of Watain is a sensitive case, too, as he mentioned Hitler as a great visionary (though this was rather a praise of destruction than an approval of Nazism) and because of the shit that happened in Germany in 2006 (see Watain article). --132.187.3.26 (talk) 08:09, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll add the Erik and Caligula references now while I have the time. I'll find the King and Infernus ones later. Dark Prime (talk) 10:51, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, who was the Catholic bishop that endorsed and praised the Nazi concentration camps in the 1930s upon inspection? I can't remember the name (Bruning or someone, wanted to include him in the article). Dark Prime (talk) 11:01, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I know there was a Brüning, but I am not sure if it was him. Including him would be a good idea, do it when you remember. --132.187.3.26 (talk) 09:59, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The Darkthrone case does not fit in at the moment. If somebody wants to put it back after I have removed it, please put it into the right context. For Varg Vikernes being the main man to have brought National Socialist beliefs into the black metal scene, Blackmetalbaz wants references. I can check the German book Unheilige Allianzen, but I have no English issue of Lords of Chaos, so if someone can look it up and give a further reference, it would be great. It is either in the Count Quisling chapter or the last one. And maybe check the Möbus interview for the sentence about Christianity enslaving the Aryans according to NSBM ideology. --132.187.3.26 (talk) 10:33, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest removing these as well. They are of no use as links, but maybe can be used as sources, if someone dares to read them in order to improve the article. --132.187.3.26 (talk) 11:25, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have now finished translating and will provide the aforementioned Unheilige Allianzen reference soon. --132.187.3.26 (talk) 11:50, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Looks excellent, much better than any of the previous versions. I remembered the bishop in question was Berning of Osnabruck, but I haven't found any sources on the internet that explicitly state he endorsed the concentration camps. Might check around papers and books later. Dark Prime (talk) 13:42, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree the page looks vastly better than previous versions! One minor word of warning... don't get too bogged down in connections between Christianity and Nazism; that's very relevant to pages on that topic, but doesn't need to be covered in detail here. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 08:42, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think it will still be okay if he adds that one example.
I will remove Erik Danielsson from the list, as I find his words rather dubious, considering his answer to the question what happened in Bad Berka (and, of course, what actually happened).
I haven’t watched the Dark Funeral interview on YouTube; does it back up Ahriman’s rejection of NSBM artists?
The Möbus interview in Lords of Chaos doesn’t explicitly back up the thought of Christianity as a Jewish instrument to enslave the Aryans, though Möbus calls it a non-semite version of Judaism, and sees the Jews as the Aryans’ antagonists. I will replace the reference, revert that if you disagree.
Someone will have to help me with the German quotes. I have no idea how the citation template for original quotes and their translation works. The German Wikipedia has such a template, here’s an example (see source code): de:Reign in Blood#Neues Label. --132.187.3.26 (talk) 09:39, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I can't remember if Ahriman himself talks about the subject in that video on youtube, although on the Black Metal: A Documentary recording (which seems to use these clips etc.) he talks about race being a pointless subject in black metal etc. Caligula goes into some depth about it in the youtube clip referenced - he said to some neo-Nazis 'put your hand down I don't believe in your fucking shit', and that when he talked about his "master race" it was a Satanist one, regardless of whether they were black, white, yellow etc. Dark Prime (talk) 09:55, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Do you know War from Sweden? This band (featuring, amongst others, former Dark Funeral member Blackmoon) said something similar about a Satanic master race, according to this review. One of the other members (can’t find the interview at the moment) said he doesn’t know what IT’s intentions were when writing the lyrics, but that he has no racist tendencies (see lyrics for “I Am Elite”). Ahriman contributed to a band called Wolfen Society, which is inspired by a secret society I never heard of, which Vincent Crowley of Acheron called an “Occultic Fascist movement” in this interview, whereas that one and the band site talk about Satanism and hatred for mankind as a whole. I also found the interview with Emperor Magus Caligula I had mentioned: [1]. He says: “Ich finde es auch interessant darüber zu lesen und dergleichen, doch ich symphathisiere sicherlich nicht mit der damaligen Einstellung, auch wenn etwas davon gar nicht so verkehrt war.” And: “Ich will nicht behaupten dass die KZ's nicht schlimm waren, aber ich will auch nicht sagen dass sie so verdammt schlimm waren.” Which means: “I find it interesting to read about it and so on, but I surely don’t sympathise with the attitude, though some of it wasn’t that wrong” and “I don’t pretend the concentration camps weren’t bad, but I don’t want to say they were that bad either.” --132.187.3.26 (talk) 10:46, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
On War: I've known about them for sometime, and I've been quite suspicious about Blackmoon for that matter. So far I haven't seen any sources where he talks about his stances in regards to the "I am Elite" song.
On Wolfen Society: I know a bit about Vincent Crowley, but not that much, so I'm not sure what he means. From what I know of Wolfen Society, it's meant to be oriented around misanthropy (something often cited as a reason for opposing NSBM), and Lord Ahriman claims to be a serious misanthrope himself.
On Caligula's symapthy for aspects of Nazi ideology and concentration camps: I wouldn't be surprised if he was sympathetic to the repressive nature of these things in general, after he said he was "somewhat impressed" by Rodrigo Orias. I suppose he may well harbour an attitude like that of people such as Shyaithan of Impiety, who wrote about Auschwitz and Mengele in the song "Carbonised". Dark Prime (talk) 13:08, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I do recall Vincent Crowley being featured on Black Metal: A Documentary. I'll rewatch the bit about NSBM later to see if he had anything to say. Dark Prime (talk) 10:07, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, he did. I finally saw it, and he says he has no problem with it if it is done intelligently, whatever that means in his eyes. I also found the Blackmoon interview I mentioned: that one. I will remove Danielsson again and Blomberg too, as he stated he thinks Black Metal is for whites again in 2007 (as he did in 1994 and 1995 in Ablaze magazine and while interviewed by Moynihan or Søderlind). The interview referenced only says he does not care about the fans, which is because he is in it for the money, which he admitted, concerning Mayhem at least. So it is no proof at all. --132.187.3.26 (talk) 13:34, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Where did Hellhammer say that in 2007? Dark Prime (talk) 15:23, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, Moynihan/Søderlind/Lords of Chaos are NOT very reliable sources (having been criticised by various metal muscians etc.). Dark Prime (talk) 15:28, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
He said that here, and I doubt it was satirical.
I know LOC is not necessarily reliable, but I think we can use the exclusive interviews, and if there were problems concerning those with Blomberg, he would probably have criticised that when talking about Moynihan, which he did in that one. --132.187.3.26 (talk) 12:54, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The first link was where I first read about Hellhammer's statements, and I found this in January - March 2006. This is older than 2007. Dark Prime (talk) 13:04, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
But nevertheless, it is newer than the half-hearted and unsincere statement I had removed for the reasons mentioned above. --132.187.3.26 (talk) 13:14, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism[edit]

There is a lot of vandalism on the page as of 10/3/09. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.138.34.209 (talk) 14:55, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rewrite?[edit]

This article uses some lingo and writing clearly influenced by its own audience ("rapists", "pornographers" when referring to opponents). A more encyclopediac rewrite might be helpful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.169.163.44 (talk) 03:56, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List of NSBM bands?[edit]

Why is there only one band listed? Not saying that we should turn the article into one big list, but if we're only going to list one band then we might as well just delete this portion completely. 207.233.102.21 (talk) 04:16, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The sources for the 'list of notable bands' section are terrible[edit]

I have removed Hate Forest from the list of notable bands as neither linked source provide any evidence whatsoever for the claim that Hate Forest "[promote] National Socialist (Nazi) beliefs through their lyrics and imagery," as the genre is defined on this page. It's hard to imagine how a band that expends so much effort to remain anonymous (and never publish any lyrics) can be said to promote anything at all.

As to the sources: one is a left-wing blog that mentions the band in passing using weasel words (apparently 'some people' consider Hate Forest to be NSBM) and the second is a particularly poorly written album review reporting similar hearsay. The inclusion of a group amongst a list of notable Nazis is a serious accusation and requires much better evidence, which should at the very least conform to Wikipedia guidelines regarding the use of reputable unbiased sources.

If anything this list should be entirely removed, as inclusion within the genre is difficult to define / determine in all but the most obvious cases. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.188.179.98 (talk) 07:28, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Since no one has responded I've decided to remove the list entirely. Absurd shouldn't be on the list because their NS music wasn't even black metal (see the comments above regarding Burzum). This would have left a list that just contained Nokturnal Mortum, which is stupid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.171.106.96 (talk) 05:09, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And someone put them back up. Drudkh has nothing to do with NSBM.

Notable Bands[edit]

We should make a section of notable NSBM bands, no? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Diefromevileye (talk • contribs) 18:33, 1 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

NSBM ≠ RAC[edit]

NSBM is Black Metal with National Socialist ideas. Rock against communism is based on Punk, Oi!, and other rock related genres. It's absurd to call rock and metal the same thing. Although they both can have NS or Anti-Communist views, RAC music has many differences such as being more in favor of bar fights and toughness where NSBM has Pagan spiritual themes and explores a lot of idealism of NS. I'd also like to add that not all RAC artists are NS but most of them are White nationalist (And not all white nationalists are NS or claim to be NS). Derpian (talk) 03:48, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Article Quality[edit]

Just having read a few parts of this article, I must say I am very impressed by how it deals with NSBM given how controversial the subject is and how few reliable resources there are on it as a whole; many interviews perhaps, but those do not necessarily apply to the whole. That could be improved upon, I suppose - the article has quite a few snippets from various artists rather than any general statements - but it's perfectly understandable, given the previous point. Very interesting topic, especially for any black metal fan. Definitely going to read the rest when I have time. 142.161.82.191 (talk) 03:00, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

DSBM[edit]

If NS black metal can have an article, why can't depressive black metal (DSBM) ?Second Skin (talk) 05:51, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

SecondSkin The determining factor is how much DSBM is talked about in reliable sources. If you could find some good books or journal or magazine articles that talk about the style in-depth (not just a passing mention), then go ahead and create the article.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 22:10, 25 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Drudkh[edit]

Should Drudkh be listed? On the one hand, Olena Semenyaka of Politosophia names Nokturnal Mortum, Kroda, Drudkh, and Hate Forest as constituting "one of the most acclaimed NSBM scene in the world." However, a Sputnikmusic staff reviewer says that the band's label as NSBM is incorrect. The band distances itself from "extreme political views," at least in it's only press release dealing with the matter. Karl Spracklen in the article "True Aryan Black Metal" is neutral, commenting that "Drudkh are a Ukrainian pagan BM band, whose key members were also musicians in Hate Forest, a NSBM band" and "even if Drudkh are not National Socialist, they have fans who are." (90-91, 105-106 in the PDF nav bar) However, there's another article by Spracklen, "Leisure, Consumption and a Blaze in the Northern Sky: Developing an Understanding of Leisure at the End of Modernity through the Habermasian Framework of Communicative and Instrumental Rationality, which I cannot access, but which in my Google search brings up a quote "I'm not white but I can still appreciate lots of great NSBM from some awesome bands such as Burzum, Graveland, Drudkh, Kristallnacht and.." As I cannot read the article, I cannot tell whom Spracklen is quoting. My point is, some sources indicate that Drudkh is NSBM, while others say that Drudkh is not NSBM, and some consider it possible but make no clear-cut determination. The band itself never explicitly said that it isn't NSBM, which is telling, but claimed that it is not associated with extreme views.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 22:09, 25 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Varg Vikernes[edit]

Varg Vikernes of Burzum likewise called Adolf Hitler a warrior of the Asgardsrei.[28]

Source not found, so it is an unverified atribution, must be removed.

It is verified, but the link is dead. However, because it was verified, I was able to find an archive link.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 05:29, 8 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Original source is still available on the Burzum.com website, but at a different url.[2] I am, however, concerned that the information that we have included in the article is a WP:CHERRYPICK from that source. Vikernes mentions both Hitler and Stalin by name, and Kings and Earls (Counts), warriors and other noble men, but also of thieves and murderers, criminals and bandits generally; it would seem misleading for us to include only the Hitler mention. Given that Vikernes is a living person, I will remove the sentence pending discussion & consensus here. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 00:14, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

List of artists[edit]

Fellow editors, We currently have a List of artists section containing both notable (Wikipedia article exists) and non-notable (no Wikipedia article exists) artists.
In accordance with the discussion Famous bands above, and WP:NOTDIRECTORY, I suggest we amend this to List of notable artists or similar; removing the non-notable artists. Thoughts? - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 00:34, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we need to have "notable" in the list title - just remove entries that do not have citations.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:04, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
 Done - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 01:30, 2 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've updated the list, with sources. All entries must have citations, and if a band is cited please discuss on talk before removing. I understand that this list has serious political ramifications, both for listing and removing. We MUST rely on independent sources.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 04:27, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Addition of Navbox - Skinhead[edit]

Fellow editors, the {{Skinhead}} Navbox had been added to the article. I have AGF reverted this, with the reasoning Rv AGF; while there is the obvious indirect link via National Socialism, not seeing a direct link to "Skinhead". I do not believe that there is sufficient direct link to warrant inclusion of NSBM in the Skinhead Navbox, nor the addition of the Navbox to this article. Thoughts? - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 05:17, 16 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Darkened Nocturn Slaughtercult[edit]

I've read the DNS interview and I don't see them saying they share "certain views of NSBM". They seem to reject the ideology and speak against ideas regarding the value of human beings being defined by their race, nationality and gender. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.169.73.114 (talk) 22:39, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I share the IP's concerns. The "certains views" quote is not found in the source; and the interview clearly does not support linking the band with NSBM. I will remove the section. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 23:07, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Disputed bands[edit]

There should be a separate section for bands like Drudkh and Burzum, which although a few sources (which i find questionable, but beside the point) try to claim are NSBM, have no NS content in their lyrics, and indeed, even have sources that say they are not NSBM. Stop lumping these in with the main list. 24.138.186.41 (talk) 13:18, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The article is very clear that projects by artists who have neo-Nazi or fascist views, but whose views aren't explicit in the music (although the themes are present), are still often labeled NSBM by outside analysts. This is essentially the same type of debate that you have with many Christian music genres such as Christian rock and metal and Christian hip hop - do the personal beliefs of the artists qualify them as performing the genre, or do those beliefs need to be explicit in the lyrics? With most of the NS-associated artists here, their music is still thematically NS even if not explicit (especially with Burzum), and most are involved in the NSBM scene. In one case, you deleted an artist who admitted that their band was NSBM but isn't anymore, even though there was a note explaining this.
If you believe a specific source is questionable, you can discuss it here on the talk page or take it to the reliable sources noticeboard. Please note that many entries have clarifying notes regarding the artists in question.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:56, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Inaccuracy regarding Burzum/Varg Vikernes[edit]

There is a section that says:

“The emergence of NSBM coincided with the rise of the early Norwegian black metal scene in the early 1990s, particularly through the band Burzum, whose sole member, Varg Vikernes, developed his anti-Christian beliefs into an increasingly white nationalist and neo-Nazi form of Heathenry.”

Burzum has never been associated with NSBM as it is defined within this very article above the quoted portion. Simply having certain beliefs does not make a band NSBM. You will not find any serious Black Metal fan who would say this, and no other history of the genre describes Burzum as NSBM. This should be removed from the article altogether. 2601:248:601:7270:B51E:7E66:EBAB:A75D (talk) 22:23, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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