Talk:Jasenovac concentration camp

The maximum number in the range of victims in Jasenovac

Regards to all. I think that the upper limit of the number of victims in Jasenovac should be moved. More precisely, the maximum number of victims.

I do not dare to claim how many victims there were in total in Jasenovac, I am only presenting those sources and facts, which indicate a much higher number of victims than what is currently written on the English wikipedia. I tried to make the sources reliable, from American, German, Israeli, Norwegian and Yugoslav sources.

In the next message I will send the sources and detailed argumentation. Now I will write only this more. On the Wikipedia website in the following languages ​​there are much higher numbers than currently in English.

- Spanish wikipedia 60,000 - 1,000,000

- French wikipedia - ~ 1 000 000

- Portuguese wikipedia - Between 500 and 600 thousand deaths were officially recognized by the former Yugoslavia, while other studies indicate numbers close to 700,000 to 1,000,000 victims.

The next message will be much more detailed, if there is a need I can make additional arguments and expand the discussion. Cheers. Axiomac (talk) 12:49, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I sorted by years, from 1946 to 2021

- 1946  Official Land Commission of Croatia - "Zločini u logoru Jasenovac" (Crimes in the Jasenovac Camp).

The book was published in Zagreb in 1946.

Page 46 - "We will mention below some fifty mass crimes carried out by the Ustase in Jasenovac, and if we add the number of prisoners who were killed individually to the number of victims killed in mass executions, we arrive at the figure of approximately 500,000 to 600,000."

At the end of World War II, the Croatian State Commission began prosecuting war criminals and collecting documents, depositions of witnesses, etc. but suddenly cancelled research in the district offices in 1946, in the territorial commissions in 1947, and cancelled work of the entire State Commission in early 1948. However, according to the Foreword in the reprinted report of the Croatian State Commission, “[The various] Commissions collected 900,000 reports on war crimes, made some 550,000 minutes on hearings of witnesses and criminals, collected about 20,000 original documents from the occupiers’ sources, many thousands of other materials (newspapers, posters, publications, copies of documents, etc.) and over 5,000 photographs of various criminals [and victims]. About 170 papers and analyses were made, brought 120,000 decisions by which 65,000 people were stated as war criminals.”

The Croatian State Commission, while acknowledging that too many documents had been destroyed to establish an exact number, reported: “[S]ome 50 mass crimes [were] committed by the Ustashas in Jasenovac, and if we add the number of victims killed in these slaughters to the prisoners killed individually, we will reach the number of some 500-600,000... . There was not a single criminal in the whole history of humankind who had one tenth of a nation slaughtered, as Ante Pavelić did with his own people.”

On-site investigations in Jasenovac were carried out by the Land Commission with expert apparatus.

Three investigations were carried out.

The first investigation was carried out by the District Commission for determining the crimes of the occupiers and their helpers in Nova Gradiška on May 11, 1945.

The second investigation was carried out by a special survey commission, which the Land Commission sent to Jasenovac on the 18th; May 1945, to examine the remaining traces of the crime. That commission consisted of one representative of this National Commission, 3 judges of higher courts, and two doctors-experts in forensic medicine.

The third investigation was carried out by this National Commission with its officer with the participation of forensic medical experts and 2 photographic experts.

In Zagreb, on 15 November 1945 Number: 4547/45. State Commission for the Investigation of the Crimes of the Occupation Forces and their Collaborators President: Dr. Venceslav Celigoj  Secretary: Dr. Ante Stokic

Links:

Page 33 https://www.rastko.rs/cms/files/books/47cec18d78325.pdf

https://www.antikvarne-knjige.com/knjige/detail-item_id-12632

- 1948 : - New York Times July 12, 1948:The Times referred to Jasenovac for the first time while describing Yugoslavia's arrest of some agents of the defeated Croatian Ustashe.

"A third [arrested Ustasha - J.I.] was Ljubo Milosh, described as commander of the Ustashi concentration camp at Jasenica [Jasenovac - J.I.], where more than 800,000 persons perished during the war."

- 1956 - 1958 Neubacher, Hermann (1958). Sonderauftrag Südost, Musterschmit-Verlag

Among German documentation is that of Hitler’s assistant for Balkan affairs, Dr. Hermann Naubacher, who published a report in which he stated, “When the leading men of the Ustashi movement are stating that they have slaughtered one million Serbs (including infants, children, women and aged) this in my opinion is a self-praising exaggeration. According to the reports that have reached me, my estimate is that the number of those defenseless slaughtered is some three-quarters of a million [750,000].” (Sonderaufrag Sudost 1940-1945, Bericht eines fliegenden Diplomaten, Gottingen, 1956: 18-31)

- 1958 Encyclopedia of the Lexicographical Institute, Published in Zagreb, 1958, p. 649: "500-600 thousand" victims.

- 1960 Encyclopedia of Yugoslavia, Published in Zagreb, 1960, p. 467: 700,000 victims.

Encyclopaedia of Yugoslavia under the entry Jasenovac camp with a brief description states that "the exact number of those killed in the Jasenovac camp cannot be determined; according to an estimate that relies on the statements of survivors, preserved documents and the confessions of the captured.

Ustasha criminals from the Jasenovac camp, the number of Jasenovac victims exceeds 700,000.

- 1961 The American Catholic Professor Edmond Paris, Genocide in Satellite Croatia: 1941-1945, writes, “The greatest genocide during World War II, in proportion to a nation’s population, took place, not in Nazi Germany but in the Nazi-created puppet state of Croatia. There, in the years 1941-1945, some 750,000 Serbs, 60,000 Jews and 26,000 Gypsies—men, women and children—perished in a gigantic holocaust. These are the figures used by most foreign authors, especially Germans, who were in the best position to know....  “... The magnitude and the bestial nature of these atrocities makes it difficult to believe that such a thing could have happened in an allegedly civilized part of the world. Yet even a book such as this can attempt to tell only a part of the story.” (American Institute for Balkan Affairs, Chicago, 1961: Introduction)

- 1971 Encyclopedia of Yugoslavia, Published in Zagreb, 1971: 600,000 victims

- 1971 - 1987 All versions of Encyclopedia Britannica from 1971 through 1987 (after which the entry was deleted) contain the following: “In Bosnia... the Croatian fascists began a massacre of Serbs which, in the whole annals of World War II, was surpassed for savagery only by the mass extermination of Polish Jews.” (1971 ed., Vol. 23: 922)

- 1972 Military Encyclopedia, Belgrade, 1972, p. 31: "over 600,000" victims.

- 1972 New York Times October 1, 1972: In an article on the Yugoslav government's response to terrorist attacks by Croatian Ustasha exiles, the Times again stated that 800,000 people were murdered in Jasenovac.

"Amid the dismal swamplands at Jasenovac, a small town southeast of the Croatian city of Zagreb a graceful concrete monument suggestive of hands raised in an appeal for mercy looks out over grass-covered mounds that neatly conceal the remains of one of the death camps of World War II.

The Jasenovac camp was operated by the Ustashi, the Fascist movement that gained power in Croatia in 1941 through collaboration with German and Italian invaders of Yugoslavia.

As many as 800,000 people - mainly Serbs, Jews and gypsies but also Croatian and other opponents of the Ustashi - are believed to have been shot, hanged clubbed to death or drowned in the nearby Sava River during the war years before the Ustashi fled from advancing Yugoslav and Soviet troops.

Link

https://www.nytimes.com/1972/10/01/archives/yugoslavs-assail-croat-dissidents-denunciations-of-the-ustashi.html

- 1973 “The Ustashi murdered and tortured Jews and Serbs in indescribably bestial fashion. One of the most notorious camps in Hitler’s Europe, Jasenovac, was in Croatia. Here the Ustashi used primitive implements in putting their victims to death—knives, axes, hammers and other iron tools. A characteristic method was binding pairs of prisoners, back to back, and then throwing them into the Sava River. One source estimates that 770,000 Serbs, 40,000 Gypsies and 20,000 Jews were done to death in the Jasenovac camp” (Dr. Nora Levin, The Holocaust: The Destruction of European Jewry 1933-1945, Schocken Books, New York, 1973 ed.: 515)

- 1991 The Encyclopaedia Britannica says, “In Croatia the indigenous fascist regime set about a policy of ‘racial purification’ that went beyond even Nazi practices. Minority groups such as Jews and Gypsies were to be eliminated, as were the Serbs: it was declared that one-third of the Serbian population would be deported, one-third converted to Roman Catholicism, and one-third liquidated.... Ustasha bands terrorized the countryside. The partial collaboration of the Catholic clergy in these practices continues to be a component of Serb-Croat suspicion.” (1991 ed., Macropedia, Vol. 29: 1111)

- 1992 (Washington Post, June 06, 1992) Michael Mennard - The writer, is a retired Foreign Service officer.

The Serb-Croat animosities existed even before World War I and reached a climax in World War II in the concentration camps of the Jasenovac complex, where more than 700,000 Serbs, Jews and Romes died because of their ethnic, racial or religious origins. Unfortunately, Tito's Yugoslavia never provided an adequate punishment of war criminals, something that all other World War II victors did regarding their own Nazi collaborators. In Tito's Yugoslavia it was not politically correct to discuss Croatia's World War II record.

Link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1992/06/06/origins-of-animosity-in-yugoslavia/81d90c33-ef5f-417d-ad5b-15f4f00a4021/

- 1994 (New York Times, April 17, 1994) "Holocaust Memories Make the Serbs Fear Their Neighbors".

...In this holocaust, 750,000 Serbians and 70,000 Jews lost their lives, primarily in the Jasenovac death camp -- the third largest in Europe. Even the Germans were appalled by the sheer barbarism of the crimes committed there -- primarly those done to children. In 1991, Franjo Tudjman, leader of Croatia, bulldozed the Jasenovac Holocaust Museum and converted the former killing fields into a bird sanctuary. How would the world feel if this were done to Auschwitz?...

Link: https://www.nytimes.com/1994/04/17/opinion/l-holocaust-memories-make-the-serbs-fear-their-neighbors-807630.html

- 2000 Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (Jad Vashem,Edited by Robert Rozett and Shmuel Spector ISBN 0-8160-4333-7, page 280) - In the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, published under the banner of the Israeli Yad Vashem Memorial Center, on page 280, under the heading "Jasenovac" it is stated that 600,000 detainees perished in the said camp.

https://store.yadvashem.org/en/encyclopedia-of-the-holocaust-19

- 2013 Encyclopedia of the Holocaust / Israel Gutman - Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, Vol. 2, p. 739:

"Some 600 000 people were murdered at Jasenovac mostly Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and opponents of the Ustashi regime."

https://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-Holocaust-Israel-Gutman/dp/0028645278

- 2013 Greif, Gideon (2018). Jasenovac: Auschwitz of the Balkans =Jasenovac: Aušvic Balkana. Teper (Israel)

Based on information he received during his four-year work on a study entitled, "Jasenovac, the Auschwitz of the Balkans," Greif said that at least 800,000 Serbs and about 40,000 Jews had been killed in Jasenovac in the most brutal manner. "Jasenovac was the empire of death".

Link:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11fwcuVOMcXSmfr6AOXpAZ2GNmPDqtm3r/view

- 2021  1st Conference on Jasenovac concentration camp with professor Gideon Greif, Knut Flovik Thoresen and Karina Cheshuiko.

Honoring the victims of Jasenovac

This conference aims to honor the memory of the victims at Jasenovac, which was the largest concentration camp in Europe not operated by German Nazis. It had 700.000 victims, and was the third largest concentration camp in Europe, in terms of the numbers killed. Only Auschwitz and Treblinka had more. But in terms of the horrors and cruelty towards the innocent victims, it is unparalleled in human history. In its special camp for children alone, more than 20.000 children were killed; meanwhile 366.000 other prisoners of Jasenovac, were liquidated at nearby Donja Gradina.

Prof. Gideon Greif is an Israeli historian, educator and pedagogue. He is Chief Historian and Researcher at the “Shem Olam” Institute for Education, Documentation and Research on Faith and the Holocaust, Israel, Chief Historian and Researcher at the Foundation for Holocaust Education Projects in Miami, Florida and a senior Researcher and Historian at the Ono Academic College in Israel. Professor Gideon Greif is considered one of the world-renowned historians who are experts on the history of the Extermination Camp at Auschwitz-Birkenau. His most famous contribution to the history of Auschwitz is “We Wept without Tears”, his pioneering and groundbreaking research on the history of the “Sonderkommando”, a special Jewish squad of prisoner in Auschwitz-Birkenau, that was compelled to work at the mass-extermination installations. His research, first published at Yad Vashem, has become an international best seller and his book has so far been translated into 12 languages.

Knut Flovik Thoresen is a Norwegian author and historian, he has worked for various institutions and projects. He also has a military background as an officer from the Norwegian Armed Forces, and has served in several countries including Balkans, Middle East and Afghanistan. He also worked for OSCE in Ukraine in 2015. He has 14 literary publications with military history and World War II as his theme. The book “Sent To Norway to die” (the original title “Til Norge for å dø”)

Karina Cheshuiko was born in 1984 in Kaunas, Lithuania. She graduated from Gerasimov Institute of Cinematography (VGIK, Moscow) in 2007. She performed in the “Center for Drama and Directing Theatre”, conducted her own TV show at the Moscow television channel “Zhyvi”, taught stage speech and worked with the voice at the Institute of Cinematography. She conducts voice seminars in Russia and Europe.

Link: https://jadovno.com/jasenovac-the-auschwitz-of-the-balkans/?lng=cir

In case more evidence and sources are needed, we can expand the discussion. With more details and more reliable documents.

Cheers. Axiomac (talk) 13:03, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

You ignored the multiple other Language Wikipages stating 100,000 and the examples you gave use 100,000 as the mainstream and state 700,000 as an offhand posbility. In favt the French one listed 100,000 (and incorrectly stated Muslims were killed 5,000-12,000, when the source said Muslim and Croat anti-fascist dissidents). This editor removed Croats. The French one under that stated 800,000 as another possible number according to the cited source, a Serbian newspaper B92. This editor added the fringe figure and source. The mainstream consensus is 100,000 total victims. The actual number of victims found is close under 100,000. The magnitudes higher claims have found to be fringe and not realistic. As often a problem with Balkan statistics. You have highlighted a quality issue and lack of oversight in fact by bringing up the other language pages. The total victims of as much as 400,000 - 800,000 may be referring to the total number op people killed in NDH throughout the war. That would seem to make more sense. But not in one only one of many camps. That doesn’t add up considering the total death count for all of NDH and also Yugoslavia. Perhaps other editors with more experience than me can chime in. 2600:4040:9DED:F600:158C:58B:6CFF:43B6 (talk) 17:51, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

• First of all, Wikipedia is not a reliable source for facts on Wikipedia. That is WP:CIRCULAR. What is required is reliable secondary sources independent of the subject. Nearly all of the sources you have listed above are old, and from news articles and therefore subject to WP:OLDSOURCES and also lack academic credibility. You only have to read Gideon Greif's article to see that he has been criticised by Yad Veshem and Haaretz for using a "grossly inflated count" and "repeatedly inflating the number of Serb victims at Jasenovac." On the other hand, the sources cited at the bottom of the lead of the current article to support the 100K figure are:
  • the current entry on the website of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (between 77K and 99K);
  • the 2008 work of Emeritus Professor of Balkan History and Fellow of the Royal Historical Society Stevan Pavlowitch (he quotes the 2005 work of Serb jurist and demographic statistician Bogoljub Kočović with a total Serb death toll in the NDH of between 370,000 and 410,000 and a tentative Jasenovac toll of about 100K, Tomislav Dulić's 2005 work that directly refutes the 700K figure and says about 100K at Jasenovac, and researchers at the Belgrade Museum of Victims of Genocide who had by 2007 recorded 80K to 90K names of those who died at Jasenovac - this was reported in Politika on 29 January 2007. It should be noted that the Belgrade Museum of Victims of Genocide had maintained the ridiculous 700K figure until 2002 when they dropped it);
  • the BBC on 29 November 2001 says up to 100K;
  • the BBC on 25 April 2005 says "Serbs talk of 700K. Most estimates put the figure nearer 100,000."
  • Professor of Modern History and director of the University of London Holocaust Research Institute Dan Stone, who in his 2013 book The Holocaust, Fascism and Memory: Essays in the History of Ideas says on page 148, "A figure of 700K Serb deaths at Jasenovac was commonly heard in the 1980s, when the true figure is likely to have been about 100K";
  • Paul R. Bartrop, Professor of History and Director of the Center for Judaic, Holocaust and Genocide Studies at Florida Gulf Coast University, and Michael Dickerman's 2017 four volume series The Holocaust: An Encyclopedia and Document Collection says, on p. 327, "Jasenovac, where over 100K civilians were murdered"; and finally
  • Professor Alexander Mikaberidze, a Georgian historian, who states in his 2018 work Behind Barbed Wire: An Encyclopedia of Concentration and Prisoner-of-War Camps on p. 161, "100K people may have died at Jasenovac, although estimates vary considerably."
• All but one of these sources are from 2005 or later, more recent and vastly better academically than anything you have noted above. As the article lays out in some detail in the body, the 700K figure was always a manipulation (as was the 1,700,000 Yugoslav war dead used to claim reparations). If you want to change anything about figures in the article, feel free to propose them here, but I imagine that if you insist on 700K being a current estimate, you will need to establish consensus in a formal request for comment. As far as I am concerned, the 700K figure is WP:FRINGE and should be treated as such. All the best, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:20, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

  I just want to write that due to many different academic and similar sources, the range for the number of victims should be 77,000 - 700,000. As I wrote before, I do not dare to say what the number of victims was.

  This would respect all relevant and professional sources from 1946 to the present day.

  I don't understand why those sources (from 2005 or later) would be more reliable than the older ones.

  I would be grateful if you could explain why these are better sources?

  Here's another 21st century resource, with experts from around the world. I will list them later by name and title.

  This commission was founded in 2000 under the name "International Commission of Experts for the Truth about Jasenovac".

  The president of the commission is professor of the University of London, anthropologist Dr. Srboljub Živanović, and his deputy is Džorž Bogdanić.

  Four international conferences on Jasenovac have been held so far.

  The first international conference on Jasenovac, 29-31. October 1997, New York, USA

  Second international conference on Jasenovac, 8-10. May 2000, Donja Gradina, Banja Luka, Republika Srpska

  The third international conference on Jasenovac, 29–30. December 2002, Jerusalem, Israel

  Fourth International Conference on Jasenovac, 30-31. May 2007, Donja Gradina, Banjaluka, Republika Srpska

  Fifth International Conference on Jasenovac, 24-25. May 2011, Banja Luka

  The International Commission for the Truth on Jasenovac - Statement "System of Croatian Cocentration Camps can conclude that Croats managed to exterminate more than 700 000 Serbs, more than 23 000 Jews and apr.80 000 Roma." 27 April 2009

   

  Permanent members of this commission are:

  Dr. Michael Berenbaum, (Holocaust Museum in Washington), Los Angeles, USA

  prof. Dr. Bernard Klein (Bernard Klein of CUNY's Kingsborough College History Department), New York, USA

  prof. Walter Roberts (Walter R. Roberts), Washington, USA

  PhD Yelena Guskova, (Director of the Center for Balkan Crisis at the Institute of Slavic Studies at the Russian Academy of Sciences), Moscow, Russia,

  prof. dr Srboljub Živanović, (Ph.D. Prof. anthropologist Srboljub Zivanović director of the European Institute for Ancient Slavic Studies and fellow of the Royal Anthropological Institute), London, United Kingdom

  George Bogdanich, USA

  prof. Ian Hancock (Ph.D. Ian Hancock director of the Program of Romani Studies and the Romani Archives and Documentation Center at The University of Texas at Austin), International Roma Organization

  Efraim Zuroff (Efraim Zuroff director of the Simon Wiesenthal Center office in Jerusalem), Jerusalem, Israel

  Marco Aurelio Rivelli, Milan, Italy

  Vanita Singh, India

  prof. Alexis Troude (Alexis Troude professor of History/Geography in Paris, specialized for region of ex Yugoslavia), Paris, France

  prof. Dr. Rajko Določek, Czech Republic

  Dr. Milan Bulajić, (Director of the Genocide Museum), Genocide Research Fund, Belgrade, Republic of Serbia

  Dr. Wanda Schindley, Dallas, USA

  Ekaterina A. Samoylova (Ekatarina A. Samoylova), Russian Federation

  Yevgeniy Vasilevich Chernosvitov, Russian Federation

  Tim Fenton (Tim Fenton), London, Great Britain

  John Peter Maher

  Jared Israel

  Dragoljub Acković, Republic of Serbia

  William Dorich, USA

  Anna Filimonova, Russian Federation

  Vladimir Umeljić, Germany

  Saša Aćić, Republika Srpska

  Link: https://www.jasenovac.org/conferences/

  Thanks.

  All the best. Axiomac (talk) 11:45, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  Copy&pasting a huge laundry list of 'sources' is not actually conducive to getting your argument across, because it also includes e.g. Dr. Srboljub Živanović for which there's already a discussion in the article for years now. This is not helpful. Please read WP:RS. --Joy (talk) 11:56, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

BTW Israel Gutman died in 2013, the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust for which he was the editor-in-chief was originally from 1990. That reference has been discussed many years ago, cf. archives of this talk page, and is still listed in the article, but it's probable that this requires further examination because decades later we still don't even have the page number. --Joy (talk) 12:36, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Axiomac, you clearly have not read what I wrote and you are wasting my time and yours. You do not have consensus for this edit. 700K is completely fringe, and completely unacceptable on en WP. Please just WP:DROPTHESTICK. I will not be engaging in further posts here on this issue until and unless you start a neutrally worded RfC. All the best, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:56, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Axiomac, Efraim Zuroff and Greif Gideon people who deny the genocide in Srebrenica are a reliable source? I don't want to comment on the others, half of them are from Serbia, and according to them there are 5 million victims such is the current policy of Serbia to downplay the genocide in Srebrenica.93.139.197.125 (talk) 12:55, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't want to waste your time. I'll just post one more message on this talk page.

I hope this is a neutral and credible source.

"Jasenovac: proceedings of the first international conference and exhibit on the Jasenovac

concentration camps"

Kingsborough Community College of the City University of New York, October 29-31, 1997

Link: https://pdfcoffee.com/jasenovac-1-pdf-free.html

• THE GREATEST GENOCIDE IN PROPORTION TO THE POPULATION “The greatest genocide during World War II, in proportion to a nation's population, took place, not in Nazi Germany but in the Nazi-created puppet state of Croatia. There, in the years 1941-1945, some 750,000 Serbs, 60,000 Jews and 26,000 Gypsies - men, women and children - perished in a gigantic holocaust. These are the figures used by most foreign authors, especially Germans, who were in the best position to know. . . . “. . . The magnitude and the bestial nature of these atrocities makes it difficult to believe that such a thing could have happened in an allegedly civilized part of the world. Yet even a book such as this can attempt to tell only a part of the story.”

Professor Edmond Paris, Genocide in Satellite Croatia, 1941-1945, Chicago, 1961, The American Institute for Balkan Affairs, from the introduction of the book.

• ETHNIC SLAUGHTER “The greatest ethnic slaughter took place as Yugoslavia was carved up after the German invasion in April 1941. The creation of a separate Croatia . . . controlled by the fascist, Catholic, extremist Ustasha movement was the catalyst for the tragedy... Now, historic Croatia was expanded to include Bosnia-Herzegovina and other territories, and the Ustasha were left . . . to govern a population of nearly 7 million people, of whom about half were Croats, just over 2 million were Serbs, about 750,000 were Muslims, and small numbers were Protestants and Jews. . . . The Minister of Education, Mile Budak, made clear the Ustasha aims: 'Our new Croatia will get rid of all Serbs in our midst in order to become one hundred percent Catholic within ten years.’”

Professor Clive Ponting, Armageddon, Random House, Inc., New York, 1995, pp. 231-232.

• INDESCRIBABLE BESTIAL “The Ustashi murdered and tortured Jews and Serbs in indescribably bestial fashion. One of the most notorious camps in Hitler's Europe, Jasenovac, was in Croatia. Here the Ustashi used primitive implements in putting their victims to death - knives, axes, hammers and other iron tools. A characteristic method was binding pairs of prisoners, back to back, and then throwing them into the Sava River. One source estimates that 770,000 Serbs, 40,000 Gypsies and 20,000 Jews were done to death in the Jasenovac camp.”

Dr. Nora Levin, The Holocaust―The Destruction of European Jewry 1933-1945, Schocken Books, New York, Edition 1973, page 515

You can find more details on the following link:

https://pdfcoffee.com/jasenovac-1-pdf-free.html

I will repeat once more, I will not write on this topic again. I hope these are neutral and relevant source.

Greeting.

All the best. Axiomac (talk) 13:13, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

I respect your opinion.

Do you think the same for Dr. Nora Levin, Professor Clive Ponting and Professor Edmond Paris?

THE GREATEST GENOCIDE IN PROPORTION TO THE POPULATION “The greatest genocide during World War II, in proportion to a nation's population, took place, not in Nazi Germany but in the Nazi-created puppet state of Croatia. There, in the years 1941-1945, some 750,000 Serbs, 60,000 Jews and 26,000 Gypsies - men, women and children - perished in a gigantic holocaust. These are the figures used by most foreign authors, especially Germans, who were in the best position to know. . . . “. . . The magnitude and the bestial nature of these atrocities makes it difficult to believe that such a thing could have happened in an allegedly civilized part of the world. Yet even a book such as this can attempt to tell only a part of the story.”

Professor Edmond Paris, Genocide in Satellite Croatia, 1941-1945, Chicago, 1961, The American Institute for Balkan Affairs, from the introduction of the book.

ETHNIC SLAUGHTER “The greatest ethnic slaughter took place as Yugoslavia was carved up after the German invasion in April 1941. The creation of a separate Croatia . . . controlled by the fascist, Catholic, extremist Ustasha movement was the catalyst for the tragedy... Now, historic Croatia was expanded to include Bosnia-Herzegovina and other territories, and the Ustasha were left . . . to govern a population of nearly 7 million people, of whom about half were Croats, just over 2 million were Serbs, about 750,000 were Muslims, and small numbers were Protestants and Jews. . . . The Minister of Education, Mile Budak, made clear the Ustasha aims: 'Our new Croatia will get rid of all Serbs in our midst in order to become one hundred percent Catholic within ten years.’”

Professor Clive Ponting, Armageddon, Random House, Inc., New York, 1995, pp. 231-232.

INDESCRIBABLE BESTIAL “The Ustashi murdered and tortured Jews and Serbs in indescribably bestial fashion. One of the most notorious camps in Hitler's Europe, Jasenovac, was in Croatia. Here the Ustashi used primitive implements in putting their victims to death - knives, axes, hammers and other iron tools. A characteristic method was binding pairs of prisoners, back to back, and then throwing them into the Sava River. One source estimates that 770,000 Serbs, 40,000 Gypsies and 20,000 Jews were done to death in the Jasenovac camp.”

Dr. Nora Levin, The Holocaust―The Destruction of European Jewry 1933-1945, Schocken Books, New York, Edition 1973, page 515 Axiomac (talk) 13:23, 9 October 2023 (UTC)