Talk:Black supremacy

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SPLC[edit]

The decision by SPLC to stop tracking Black supremacy, and to instead classify it as "Black activism" against White supremacy should either be removed as irrelevant, or reworded so its not presented as a neutral stance. Using them as a source in the rest of the article conflicts directly with this paragraph. Also there's this line " A source described by historian David Mark Chalmers as being "the most extensive source on right-wing extremism" is the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), " Why does the SPLC's bone fides need this? It ignores that black supremacy crosses right/left lines for one thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.28.113 (talk) 21:33, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

SPLC announced they they no longer use the category of "Black separatism", not tat they would no longer use the category of "Black supremacy". I removed the paragrah.--Pa2chant.bis (talk) 06:05, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pa2chant.bis, you are factually correct, however the later text is heavily dependent on SPLC descriptions of fringe religiousc groups, so I've partially restored a corrected text to put the descriptions in context. Pincrete (talk) 06:34, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot understand the idea : they stopped to use the catégory separatist group in which some supremacists were included, but never said the word descripted supremacist groups, as now stated in the page. I added a "citation needed". They still denonciate those supremacist groups in others categories, there is no reason that the text be dependant of their categories. --Pa2chant.bis (talk) 08:37, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pa2chant.bis, look immediately below that section - the fringe churches - within the descriptions they characterise several groups as, to a greater or lesser extent 'supremacist'. They DON'T, categorise supremacist groups as such and I think never have.

Without the context of SPLC ceasing to categorise black groups as such, the later descriptions would appear to still be current SPLC designations. AFAIK, they have only historically denounced those supremacist groups for their 'supremacist' views. They now only categorise them/ denounce them if they are, for example anti-semetic, anti LGB, etc.Pincrete (talk) 08:57, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Partially agree with you for the distinction between description and categorization. So the text should be corrected. They reject the use of the categarisation separatist, not sure they do the same with the description of suprematists. Because they have made a strong différence between separatism and supremacism : It’s critically important to distinguish those groups that espouse Black supremacy or advocate for nationalism based on race – we could call that Black Racial Nationalism – from Black separatism [1].So the use of categories is not linked with the use of the term.--Pa2chant.bis (talk) 09:46, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Quite often the SPLC simply say things like "supremacist wing", "has used supremacist rhetoric" etc. There's a long history of this article documented in the archives, but basically hardly anything has been written about 'Black supremacy', but WP insists on keeping it! Pincrete (talk) 10:52, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we have the same kind of discussion on the french page. I will get back to you if we ave a brillant idea, but the current state is not satisfactory. --Pa2chant.bis (talk) 16:26, 25 November 2023 (UTC)--Pa2chant.bis (talk) 16:26, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Use of a thesis for off-topic content in SPLC section[edit]

User:Vache-crapaud, firstly you should read WP:BRD, and WP:RS - the onus is on you to persuade others that the material you wish to insert is relevant, reliably sourced and useful info. The onus is not on me or others to prove it is not.

AFAI can see this addition isn't about the article subject (Black supremacy), rather it is some vague criticism of SPLC. It isn't reliably sourced (an unpublished graduate thesis is neither a reliable source, not is it verifiable).

I'm going to o revert to the stable version of the article and invite you to make your case here if you want this material included. Please don't WP:EDITWAR further.Pincrete (talk) 14:39, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pincrete Thank you for pointing me to the BRD page, which is an interesting debate strategy, though as it states, it is entirely optional. IMHO, the source I have drawn on is more reliable, because it is secondary and specifically focused on the SPLC's Hate Map's problems of categorisation, than using the SPLC itself as a source. As for the relevance of drawing on that source in that section : the SPLC's 2020 decision to stop surveiling Black separatist groups which they used to qualify as Black supremacists is due, as they themselves state, to the confusion they have fostered around the equivalence of Black separatism and white supremacy. My addition's interest is to ground into secondary sources this role they have played. Indeed, I cannot prove that this master's thesis has had scholarly influence (as per the criteria of the WP page on masters thesis as reliable sources). But I believe that if you deem the article better off without it, you ought to also take out all the direct references to SPLC documents. What do you think ? Vache-crapaud (talk) 14:53, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:Vache-crapaud, SPLC's 2020 decision to stop surveiling Black separatist groups which they used to qualify as Black supremacists. They didn't EVER categorise groups as 'Black supremacist' - they occasionally described some separatist groups as being Black supremacist - within their text, see the religious groups below the SPLC section.

The text you added doesn't mention 'Black supremacy' AT ALL, so how can it be about that subject.

Comparing an unprinted - and unverifiable student thesis - to an established and widely respected institution (SPLC) is way outside WP policy and practice. Pincrete (talk) 15:52, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is my understanding that the 2020 declaration was a recognition of the previous conflation between suprematism and separatism the SPLC had been involved in. This is supported, I believe, by this editor's note on a 2008 article at https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2008/racist-black-hebrew-israelites-becoming-more-militant :

The SPLC no longer supports the framing of Black-led antisemitic hate groups as “supremacist,” because such characterizations perpetuate a false equivalency between what these groups represent and white supremacy. Any mention of racism in the context of the Black-led hate ideology described in this article does not appropriately reckon with the systemic force that is structural racism.

Additionnally, no matter how respectable or well-established a source is, an institution is imho never a reliable source when the subject matter is its own controversial positions.

Thoughts ? Vache-crapaud (talk) 16:16, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"racial supremacist" -> "racial supremacist and racist"[edit]

Lets be clear here: Its a racial supremacist AND racist belief. So lets add those two words. Lets not bend over backwards to not write "racist", thats silly. It is a racist belief. Just like White Supremacy is racist. There is *no* consensus in sociology that racism must be based on the "predominantly powerful race in the respective location" and even if there was, this is a global website. It cant be based with any particular place in mind such as the US. Thus, it must be classified as racist no different to any other race superiority worldview.

Cheers, DJ 77.20.155.35 (talk) 19:53, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is actually no agreement among sources that 'black supremacy' - as an ideology, belief or movement - as opposed to an occasional rhetorical stance - actually meaningfully exists. If it did, it would probably be 'racist', but we would expect sources to say that - rather than what was 'clear' semantically. Pincrete (talk) 06:06, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It’s called the Nation of Islam. 2601:201:8101:E5E0:5908:AE1F:A6D3:AFD1 (talk) 08:57, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

yup Xvfumes (talk) 04:28, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Specifically, to whites, hispanics are seen in a closer "view", if you can call it that. Like Black Hebrew Israelites, very similar considering both are from an own sect of their base religions. Xvfumes (talk) 04:30, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bear in mind that article talk pages exist solely to discuss how to improve articles; they are not for general discussion about the subject of the article! Pincrete (talk) 06:18, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]