Talk:Detroit techno

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Suggested links[edit]

get down detroit style —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.229.63.70 (talk • contribs) 25 November 2004

In the 'see also' section the link to detroit-history does not link. should be fixed. and it should be 'Rhythim Is Rhythim' in 'origin' - yes it's a typo by derrick may but this is the correct name.

Avoid vanity[edit]

Sorry to be the sourpuss here but I've removed the "Notable DJs" section for now because it was basically filled with spam. DJ/producer/promoter crews specializing in Detroit techno (and individual members of those crews) are not inherently notable unless they're getting significant mainstream press. If they have their act together, they probably do deserve a mention in the External links section, but should not have Wikipedia articles devoted to them, especially if they formed in the mid-1990s or later and especially if they are still active and looking to Wikipedia for exposure. If you are dependent upon Wikipedia for promotion, then you're non-notable, sorry. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a message board or free advertising space.—mjb 07:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Need more Detroit techno specific content[edit]

The main content of this article is currently little more than snippets from the techno music and Detroit Electronic Music Festival articles, plus an intro that really does very little to establish how Detroit techno is different from other techno. I realize Detroit techno is hard to describe, without a musicology degree, in a way that clearly delineates it from other techno, but there is a distinct Detroit "sound" that fans can identify fairly easily. This should be mentioned. I will add it myself eventually if no one else does, but for now I just want to put this out there for the other potential editors of this article.

Ideally the rest of the content should not be just a rehash of other articles; it should instead go into greater depth about the evolution and stagnation of the Detroit sound, the fact that Detroit's scene is historically relatively insular, the fact that Detroit DJs toured and lived in Europe in the mid-'90s instead of promoting their music at home, non-Detroit area artists with a knack for Detroit techno, info about specific notable events in the Detroit scene, the effect of the DEMF on the subgenre, people's changing perceptions of what Detroit techno does and does not include (e.g., the relationship to ghettotech and electro), citations of Techno Rebels, and so on.—mjb 07:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree entirely. I think the Detroit sound is an hardware-oriented sound (Although that will probably change in the next 10 years) and Soul more than anything. Maybe it's the funk/Motown influences, but I can't really cite that.

86.148.241.253 20:11, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge[edit]

Suggest merging with main techno article. If you wish to provide more detail, add a category to that article. Detroit techno is techno.

I object to the suggested merger. Although Detroit techno is certainly techno music, it nevertheless has certain characteristics of its own which are not characteristic of all techno music, e.g. German techno music. And, moreover, it has its own coherent history. I think this is a suitable subject matter for a separate article. --Cessator (talk) 17:54, 27 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I, too object. Having a separate article for Detroit techno gives us a place to talk more about this subgenre in depth and list examples of artists and songs, and it also makes it possible to minimize the discussion of Detroit techno in the main techno article. The main article needs to be about techno in general, and subgenres need to be in separate articles which are only summarized and pointed to from the main article. The problem is just that in its current form, the Detroit techno article is a stub which essentially just summarizes part of the main article. So I can see why it's tempting to merge it out of existence. But I would rather just see the Detroit techno article improved. I will put out a call on the 313 list to get some volunteers. —mjb (talk) 22:35, 27 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Technical Points[edit]

"A distinguishing trait of Detroit techno is the use of analog synthesizers and early drum machines, particularly the Roland TR-909"

I would say the first half of this summary is misleadingly precise and a common myth among non-producers. One characteristic of at least some early Detroit techno is digital synthesizers, cheap FM synths to be precise, for the bass in particular (things like the Yamaha DX100 especially, eg. see Nude Photo). On the other hand, someone like Juan Atkins or Carl Craig did centre his early/mid work around an analog synth or two. So, it's swings and roundabouts really and the reason I cannot commit to making an encyclopaedic entry. Should I even hit Save for this? Yeah, may as well. Also, is the 909 really an 'early' drum machine? That makes me think of the pop-and-whistle bakelite drum machines from the early 70s. Ho hum. I'll hit Save now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.10.62.183 (talk) 18:41, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Recent Work[edit]

Isn't particularly recent, 2007 was a while ago and that is the most recent reference. Can anyone provide some updates? 121.217.7.135 (talk) 12:34, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

This page seems to be mostly an advertisement for Saunderson, May, and Atkins. While I don't deny that they were important in the detroit sound, the article implies that they are like god and they created something out of thin air. I think the article should focus more on the genre, not continuously referencing these 3 characters. Wikipedia isn't meant to be an advertisement, and any specific information regarding the artists can be listed on their own wiki pages. No need to attach them like gods of a genre. They were all copying Larry Heard anyways. LOL!Danceking5 (talk) 18:33, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Afrofuturism / Rasta Culture?[edit]

To claim an unbroken lineage from a nebulous, undefined, 'rasta culture' to the formation of a specific techno aesthetic in Detroit is not sustainable. Jamaican dub producers like King Tubby and Lee Perry certainly play a part in pioneering technologized studio-based music production, but these do not amount to 'rasta culture'.

Neither is there a immediate, direct, continuum between musical practices in Kingston, Jamaica, and in Detroit, US, despite some comparable issues in Afrofuturist cultural politics that are, indeed, connected, rhizomically, further down the line.

The claim is then followed by an opinion that says little in the context of genre definition: electronic music is made by many people. This may be the case, but does not engage the reader with the very specific Afrofuturist politics of Detroit Techno (many people play guitar but that does not say anything about the formation of, for example, heavy metal or flamenco music).

To establish the latter, further work must be done in relation to publications by researchers such as Kodwo Eshun, Nabeel Zuberi and Sean Albiez, as well as Ben William's essay 'Black Secret Technology' (in: Technicolour: Race, Technology, and Everyday Life, New York UP, 2001).

In terms of afrofuturist influences, not only the New York electro scene, but also the electronic funk of Detroit's Parliament/Funkadelic/George Clinton seems a more relevant connection. Is this what was meant with the cryptic comment "he, like Clinton, is making it possible"? In its current form, it is unclear what 'Clinton' refers to, exactly and why.

 Nozem (talk) 08:06, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

8 Mile[edit]

Having grown up in Metro Detroit during part of the time period discussed here, I think that the author misunderstands the cultural significance of 8 Mile. Perhaps he or she saw the movie, and drew conclusions. West of Redford Twp. (and maybe even within Redford, but the point is, west of Detroit proper), 8 Mile doesn't matter much. It still divides Wayne Country from Oakland County, but there is not really a stigma attached to places such as Canton, Livonia, Plymouth, or, for that matter, Bellville, which are all south of 8 Mile. On the other hand, the western or southern boundaries of the city carry just as much baggage for locals as 8 Mile. In other words, really, it's not 8 Mile itself, but rather the city limits of Detroit, that define what people think of as being a "bad" area. 8 Mile just happens to be the northern limit of the City of Detroit. 72.8.255.85 (talk) 17:15, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Detroit? The birth place of techno?? You GOT to be kidding me![edit]

Your sources are bullshit.
Techno originated in Frankfurt and Berlin, Germany.
But of course Ameritards have to attribute every invention in the history of mankind to them. Telephone, light bulb, car, you name it.

  • facepalm*

Thankfully, they will wipe themselves off the planet in less than a generation.
— 88.77.191.166 (talk) 21:59, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This topic has been beaten to death at Talk:Techno and its archives. As always, your side's Eurocentric folklore is, in Wikipedia and in academic circles, roundly trumped by numerous published, reputable sources written by people who know what they're talking about.
The typical response from your side is to stretch the definition of techno to ridiculous extremes, citing industrial dance music, Kraftwerk, and one Frankfurt DJ's dubious claims as "evidence". End result: you find nothing credible to back up your claims, so the articles continue to emphasize techno's American roots. Feel free to suggest some good sources of info to the contrary. German Wikipedia is probably not a good start, though. —mjb (talk) 23:04, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is no point in having an argument about who came first or who makes 'real' techno. Detroit techno is techno from Detroit, given its name to market a compilation of electronic dance in the UK. Techno is a sign of the times, the sound of 'the technoculture', a complex post-industrial assemblage that economically and creatively depends on electronic communications. Unsurprisingly, then, there were the parallel formations of techno ('technological music'/ music of the 'technoculture'/ music by 'techno rebels') in various places, not only in Detroit and Frankfurt.

For example, check out the 1982 recording 'Techno Trax' by electro producer Man Parrish on his debut album Man Parrish (Importe/12 Records). Meanwhile, the track 'Clear' by Detroit's electronic outfit Cybotron may be included in the electro genre. Does that mean that New York electro was the first techno? No—electro was, and still is, known as 'electro', not 'techno'. Rather, I make this point to illustrate the complex network of influences in genre formation: techno does not start at just one single place of origin. Nozem (talk) 09:11, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, the Detroit thing is a little bit confusing. Of course, it was not really the birthplace of Techno music. The term "Detroit Techno" didn't even exist in the 80s. And the thing they called "Techno music" in the mid-80s was nothing else than a blend of European SynthPop and Electro-Funk music. One day, Americans have to deal with the fact that Detroit Techno is just one influential style besides many other Techno types from the 80s.
In 1982, the term Techno described primarily European SynthPop/New Wave and American Electro-Funk music. These styles hadn't really much in common with the Techno music of the 90s. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.244.67.81 (talk) 17:44, 31 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Detroit? The birth place of techno?? part 2[edit]

The issue was not addressed and it keeps coming back for us who remember what tech sounded like before it was merged with house music to become "American techno". I'm Canadian and I remember what techno sounded like...especially the techno that came over with rave. I was in the Uk in the summer of 1989 and again in 1992.

The term "detroit Techno didnt appear after the 2000. what Americans/ Canadians call techno is actually house fused with the hard edge of techno that came over with rave from the UK; the first Audio segments are in fact just early "house" music

what I wrote in the original techno discussion page The term that came across from the UK around 1993 with the rave scene was "Technorave"...the rave part quickly disappeared. This article is only meaningful to what later became Techno in the U.S./Canada For one thing the term Techno as a mainstream term was not used in the US/Canada until the mid 1990's and was totally hijacked my house music lovers in the very late 1990s. The original UK sound and origins are lost on the american audiences who merged the the original "techno" sound with House to create the american version of Techno.

What Americans later called Techno is just an hard edge off shoot of House. They took hard edged beats of industrial/techno music and the music that came over with rave and applied it to House music. So american Techno is not the original techno. the original techno was left in the Uk, people started calling it different names, dark ambient, tribal etc or merged back with rock and became things like "Digital Hardcore"

Dance music Dance music in the U.S and Canada was that, we called it DANCE MUSIC in the mainstream, it's what we called that well into the mid 1990's. I just listen to so music labeled "techno" on youtube...and guess what....its what we would of simply called "dance music" heres some supposed techno https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35XnoaV3OUQ&list=RD02PSNSbLBIkqo this would of been just called dance music.

UK techno was hijacked into House Music and high energy cheese prevalent in one off recordings...while UK techno was started by real bands that were influenced or were part of the UK industrial and experimental music in the 1980's. I can say this because I was into experimental and industrial music in the 80's and the early 1990s

If you want to find the real origins of Techno look to people like Chris and cozy, Cabaret Voltaire, industrial dance form the mid 80's. I find it strange that none of the Industrial dance music that was extremely popular in clubs the mid to late 1980s are not listed as origins. Severed Heads - hot with fleas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upaoFi7BUUQ

And if this isnt where "techno" came from. then it must of just fell from the sky premade. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0HsjYtdAKM. This was industrial music in its day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENf3AiKKmvI. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0HsjYtdAKM - SENSORIA

Therese would of been played in smaller clubs and anyone who watched MTV would of heard them. what would later be labelled trance, ambient etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlPrQS0BNRc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll8JUC7-o6M

what was experimental music in 1980 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-muNXZk4wU

What Americans call Techno is not really Techno. Its a mix of house, high energy cheese with European Techno that came over with rave. I'm not sure why people keep avoiding the issue. what Americans call Techno is really just harder edged house music.

Totally forgot about Die krupps from Germany and several others who were direct influence on the hard edge techno. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQkCrXD5ABc

More die Krupps 1990. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ek8zhxhwFY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxoYz044RGM

The issue wont go away because its wrong, and most of the people writing this are just young kids who were never there. What people call Techno in US, what it was originally, and what it came to mean are all totally different

So Techno - the origins can be in fact be traced back to Uk and specifically to Germany as many people have been saying. and even to a specif band. Maybe even specifically to Die Krupps. I never knew die krupps very well. This type of music is called EBM now, in my day it was just "industrail".

Die Krupps - Wahre Arbeit, Wahrer Lohn (1980) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxoYz044RGM

Starbwoy (talk) 06:58, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've absorbed pretty much every book, article and documentary I can get my hands on about techno, and none of them support the things you're saying. Few broach these topics at all.
The influence of industrial/EBM, etc., on techno—especially on German and American techno, is indeed underdocumented, but we can't say very much about it until someone finds something written about it in some reliable sources, so we won't run afoul of the verifiability policy. —mjb (talk) 12:33, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is an obvious culture clash (U.S. / Europe) in defining terms & practices[edit]

1. Make a distinction between the usage of an instrument v.s the form that usage takes.

Example: (music genre, instrument arrangement, band theme)

Kraftwerk = (new wave/punk/pop genre, all electric instrument arrangement, Future theme)

Parliament = (Funk genre, partial electric instrument arrangement, space theme)

david bowe(space oddity) = (Progressive rock genre,partial electric instrument arrangement, space theme)

Africa bambaataa = (Hip hop genre, all electric instrument arrangement, electro-funk theme)

chicago House = (Hip hop/Disco genre, all electric instrument arrangement, Dance theme)

Detroit techno = (House/funk/techno genre, all electric instrument arrangement no lyrics, future theme


2. The genre of music played, instrumentation, and theme might overlap at different times but that doesn't make two groups the same. It seems people are trying to lump different genres of music together just because they share common instrumentation arrangement which makes no sense. Just because both David bowie and parliment used a "partial electric instrument arrangement" and space theme doesn't make them the same style of music. Like wise just because Kraftwerk a (new wave/punk/pop) band used an "all electric instrument arrangement" doesn't mean it automatically becomes synonymous with "Detroit Techno" (House/funk/techno) or Africa bambaataa(hip hop).


3. Hip Hop(electro-funk/house/techno) is partially caricaturized by the act of sampling break beats(with the exception of maybe techno) ...not whos' break beat you sample. To say that Kraftwerk has more significance then simply being used as one of many samples or at the most being one of the first to use an "all electric instrument arrangement" is misleading.


4. Don't mix "Techno" with "Electronic music" or specifically "partial or whole electric instrument arrangement" credit for that should go to the engineers of the synthesizers not the players of them. Because when they hit the market loads of different producers got their hands on and used them before anything called techno had arrived on the scene. Basically people made whatever style of music(disco/rock/etc) they were making before except they used synth instead of traditional instruments ...similar to early use of the electric guitar.

If we want to make an article about "early adopters" or "adoption over time" of "electric instrument arrangements" independent of the musical styles(new wave, rock, funk, hip hop, punk, etc.) that incorporated those "electric instrument arrangements" then that's a different story.


5. If techno is going to be a genre of music I think it should be Detroit techno, (possibly house) and then their many derivations. If Techno means something like "electronic music"(electric instrument arrangements) in Europe then we might need a disambiguation page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:304:AE38:2799:283F:CD16:66E:FAD9 (talk) 22:34, 1 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Interesting article, but...[edit]

I'm drawn to the subject matter but am unconvinced I can learn anything from this article. Poor sourcing. Some links dead, others suspect.

There is a tendency, especially in smaller cities, for locals to exaggerate the importance of their region, in various ways. Electronic music is a large category that draws high interest. If Detroit had made such a major contribution (as implied by this article), then sourcing probably would be relatively easily accomplished. Without resorting to "Wayne State University Press" or other sources that MIGHT be a little bit biased. Pity about this article. 35.8.219.39 (talk) 19:31, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Right. I think the issue 5 years ago was that nobody had done anything at all about the flaws that were discussed 11 years ago.
Unfortunately that's still true now!
Detroit techno, and the associated history including not limited to the Belleville Three, is widely recognised in music journalism and analysis and finding citations really ain't gonna be hard.
I do agree with some earlier comments that this article fails to be about Detroit techno and the writing about Belleville in particular fails NPOV. So I think the two best things to focus on in 2023 would be:
  1. Some acts beyond the Three, *with discussion of important tracks.* Reading this article now you'd think Inner City was the only Detroit Techno single that exists and it's really not characteristic of the genre anyway
  2. There is an article on the Belleville Three anyway; move some non-music content there and the balance in *this* article will improve anyway. As it stands there's more history of the Three in this article than there is in the article about them. I'll try a first pass of adding/fixing stuff that doesn't need a discussion and consensus and see how far I get; then I'll start a 2023 discussion when I've got a bit more of an idea what needs attention.
Zaack23 (talk) 16:52, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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