Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Debt-free, Tax-free Indexed Fiat Money

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Hate to step on a newbie, but this seems to be crankwork of some kind. Page was listed for cleanup: long unwikified text speaks of "autistic economics" and other highly original concepts, whatever they mean. New user Johngelles has (correctly) added links to this to several articles, and added a long, source text manifesto to political platform. -- Smerdis of Tlön 18:39, 28 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete. Original research definitely; promotion and vanity probably. Not encyclopedic. Google search on "Debt-free, Tax-free, Indexed Fiat Money" (in quotes) gets four hits, all of which refer to John Gelles' website, http://www.tiea.us/. Google search on "DFTF-IFM" yields none at all. Dpbsmith 19:25, 28 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]
Defense by initiator of page: Money systems and their reform are covered on several pages, including capitalism, fiat money, monetary reform, accounting reform, and others. These pages refer to post-autistic economics -- but a page on it is not yet done.
There is a connection between debt-free money of the type in use in the Channel Islands and reforms of the type promoted in post-autistic economics and all other reform in search of full employment and good wages and the money (and things that money can buy) to pay for it.
The whole world of money system reform is controversial -- it would be premature to delete the ideas in the page in question. There is no doubt that current money systems fail to finance capitalist development in both rich and poor nations. It would be wrong to say we have a choice only between capitalism and socialism. Modified capitalism to create required goods and services will need far more money than profitable loans can create.
It seems to me that examination of controversial ideas is at the heart of wikipedia's purpose. If we wanted en encyclopedia that included only non-controversial facts and theories, we would not need the wiki project.
At this moment in history we know both the USA and all its friends and rivals need more money to accomplish their objectives. Until they come up with it, you may conclude there is much about money none of them know.
Let the page exist -- at least until money systems create as much money as production systems create the things that money can buy.
And even after that, if the things created fall short of civilized need, let the ideas within the page Debt-free, Tax-free Indexed Fiat Money compete with other fiat moneys until we know a lot more than now.
  • Original research. Author should resubmit when these concepts are more widely accepted - or at least more widely discussed. In the meantime, delete with a very polite reference to What Wikipedia is not. Rossami 22:10, 28 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately, even with the recent edits, it still qualifies as original research. While I appreciate your response, the short answer is: no we're not here to examine controversial ideas or conduct debates, about monetary policy or anything else. We're here to make an encyclopedia; a task which excludes "debate" per se, and also excludes, if not originality in writing, at least originality in subject matter. If you really want to make your entry encyclopedic, you might try beginning with defining it. If I were to hazard a guess, I would begin something like, "Debt-free, tax-free indexed fiat money describes a system of monetary policy in which a government issues fiat money to pay its expenses without levying taxes or incurring public debt." I probably am missing something here, but this is what I understood from the article. You may also want to at least acknowledge some of the more obvious objections to the plan, such as how a government operating under this premise might hope to avoid hyperinflation. -- Smerdis of Tlön 19:13, 29 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: original research, agenda promotion. As the combination "Debt-free, tax-free indexed fiat money" appears to be peculiar to John Gelles, I don't think an NPOV article is possible; when the term is used widely then there should be an article. Mr. Gelles may be a newcomer to WP, but he has already been promoting this concept elsewhere [1] [2] [3]. In addition he's been making links from other economics topics [4]. User:Johngelles has no contributions aside from this article and links to it from other articles [5]. It is clear Gelles intends to use WP as a vehicle for promotion of this theory. Wile E. Heresiarch 19:39, 29 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - original research. Interestingideas but not realyl what we're herefro. Will have a look myself at Money though. The Land 12:27, 30 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]


                 IMPORTANT NOTICE.


My name is Robert Searle and I have noticed that an article on Transfinancial Economics has been deleted. This, admitedly is research in progress but at the same time it does deserves as much publicity as possible because it is extremely relevant for the present time. As for hyper-inflation this is easily dealt with by super-computers, and there are a number of electronic methods by which prices can be directly controlled. Unlike the old largely redundant prices and incomes policies of the past it is now possible to allow for a stunning amount of price-flexibility making it largely acceptable for businesses. More importantly, such commercial activities would expand as never before ensuring greater wealth via productive activity simply because taxes would not exist, and loans would also be interest free.

Wikepedia should be a beacon of light for new thinking...otherwise it is a travesty. A real encyclopedia goes beyond the narrow limits of established knowledge to areas which may appear controversial in the 2lst Century. Non-Taxation is revolutionary, and represent a quantum leap for humanity when it is understood properly.

I know John Gelles, and he has similar ideas but they are not as advanced as mine. Personally, I would like to replace the traditonal understanding of the term debt-free with the creation of new money because there is still a debt to government because as soon as it is spent it pays for taxes on goods (ie. indirect taxation). Hence, in the light of this it is not really "debt-free". Indirect taxes are unavoidable, and cannot be ignored . They are a part of the present backward system.

I hope to author the book The Non-Taxation Revolution, Monetary Reform, and Global Justice. Admitedly, it will take some years to complete, and be fully referenced.

I hope I make myself clear.

Furthermore, it is an intellectual crime against acaedemia, and more importantly humanity if the ideas of Transfinancial Economics albeit in their incomplete form do not receive an airing especially on such internet encyclopedias as Wikipedia.

TRANSFINANCIAL ECONOMICS IS AT THE VERY ROOTS OF HUMAN PROGRESS, AND GLOBAL JUSTICE. REMEMBER THAT, AND UNDERSTAND IT. The ideas it presents are now possible with the advent of super-computers.

Again, I hope I make myself clear...

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