Talk:J. R. R. Tolkien

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Tolkien's dislike for spiders[edit]

Tolkien did an interview with Jan Broberg in 1961, which Broberg published in Swedish. He asked whether the terrors in Tolkien's fiction came from his personal experiences. Tolkien said he wasn't particularly afraid of anything. Then he said, "Yes, by the way! I don't like spiders. It's not a pathological fear, but I would rather not have anything to do with them." (Google Translate.) You can see a version of Broberg's article in his book I fantasins världar (Fantasy Worlds) at [1], or if that doesn't work, try searching Google Books for "Jag tycker inte om spindlar Det". However, there are no page numbers, and I think this is a later edition, and Broberg's article was "heavily revised" from his original publication. The page number in the URL may not be that in the book. There was an English translation of the interview in Hither Shore 9---all this is from the Tolkien Gateway article on Broberg.

So I think it would be good to include the quotation from the Broberg interview, but there are difficulties with the reference, which someone with access to Hither Shore (the article is partly available at Google Books, but not the part about spiders) or Broberg's work might be able to solve. Anyway, the main thing is that this isn't a simple case of Tolkien having nothing against spiders. —JerryFriedman (Talk) 16:13, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Glad we're talking, and that sources are identified. Not sure, however, that this article is the place to go into this sort of detail, complete with childhood stories and quotations. As I said in the edit comment, it actually seems rather too fine-grained even for the subsidiary article Influences on J. R. R. Tolkien, which while not as long as the parent article, is already substantial, covering a series of quite meaty topics, each with their own subsidiary articles. I suppose it might go in that article's "Childhood" section, as long as it isn't anecdotal in style. It might actually fit better in Shelob where a discussion of dislike of (large) spiders could be in order; or perhaps we're actually missing a Tolkien's giant spiders article, to cover ~~Glaurung~~Ungoliant, Shelob, and the "attercop" beasts of Mirkwood (does seem to be a bit of a recurring theme). Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:30, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Glaurung? Perhaps you mean Ungoliant? Deor (talk) 16:50, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Of course. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:59, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like unencyclopedic trivia to me. - FlightTime (open channel) 16:33, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with this being elsewhere or not on Wikipedia at all. I just don't want this or any article to say Tolkien had no dislike of spiders, based on his letter to Auden, when he said the opposite in other sources. If the spider bite is taken out of here, people might consider also removing the parts about scenes from Tolkien's childhood in Sarehole, and Edith dancing for him among the umbels, or at least the connections with his fiction. I agree with all your suggestions about where this material could go, Chiswick Chap. I'm not particularly fond of Wikipedia articles on specific fictional characters, monsters, etc., unless they reappear in various authors (Faust, Don Juan, etc.), but if we're going to have an article on Shelob, maybe it should be changed to an article on all of Tolkien's oversized spiders. Incidentally, I just did this as a break from grading final exams and such, so I won't be participating much in any discussions or work on this for a week or more. —JerryFriedman (Talk) 17:15, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Annotated Hobbit footnotes a 1957 interview in which Tolkien stated that the spiders were included to frighten his children (particularly Michael). I agree that these multiplying accounts of arachnophobia (or the lack of it) belong best in an expanded version of Shelob. ^[1] -- Verbarson ^talk_edits 20:05, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There's already a bit about this in Cultural depictions of spiders#In literature. My personal opinion is that, as FlightTime said above, it's "unencyclopedic trivia" in this article. I doubt that it's even suitable for mention in Shelob. Deor (talk) 23:16, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Deor and FlightTime, what's the "this" that you consider unencyclopedic trivia, the spider bite or just the question of whether it led to Ungoliant etc.?

In case anyone is interested in adding material to Shelob—"Letter 163" contains not only Tolkien's denial that he disliked spiders but also his statement "I knew the way was guarded by a Spider" very early in the writing of LotR. Is that trivia or welcome out-of-universe information?

I'll just mention that there's an article on Ungoliant.

I see that a longer version of the quotation I added is in Influences on J. R. R. Tolkien and Tolkien's modern sources, not in reference to the spider bite but to deny that Edgar Rice Burroughs influenced Tolkien. (No assertion that he did influence him is in those articles.) —JerryFriedman (Talk) 16:23, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking only for myself, I think the mention of the baboon spider incident in this article is probably OK as a biographical detail, but mention of its influence (or non-influence) on his fiction should not be in this article . I don't readily see how material about T.'s experiences with or feelings about spiders, as a child or as an adult, could be worked into Shelob or Ungoliant without it's appearing to be original research or merely some author's speculation (if indeed some author has speculated on the topic). Deor (talk) 16:59, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. —JerryFriedman (Talk) 23:56, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm ready to take out the "no special hatred" clause, if no one objects. —JerryFriedman (Talk) 19:53, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've pulled it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:11, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Great! —JerryFriedman (Talk) 16:26, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Tolkien, J. R. R.; Anderson, Douglas Allen (2002). The Annotated Hobbit: The Hobbit, or There and Back Again (Rev. and expanded ed.). Boston, Mass.: Houghton Mifflin. p. 210. ISBN 978-0-618-13470-0.

Source for Tolkien's Fellowship at Pembroke[edit]

Hey all, unable to edit the page due to its semi-protected status but here is a good source for the single "citation needed" tag on this page, demonstrating that Tolkien was fellowship status at Pembroke College:

https://www.pmb.ox.ac.uk/news/memorial-jrr-tolkien-commissioned  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:603:5401:D6D0:58DF:4CFE:E916:B793 (talk) 23:54, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Memorials and Legacy[edit]

I just emancipated the memorials section from the legacy section. It seems to me that the two concepts are quite distinct and should be mentioned apart. They both are excellent sections as they stand, by the way. This should probably also be changed on a lot of other pages, but I'll try it here first to see how the discussion plays out. Smit1937 (talk) 09:03, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Memorials to Tolkien[edit]

If I may make a suggestion, there is a small bust of Tolkien in the chapel at Exeter College, Oxford, and the undercroft bar sign is written in a font which is deliberately evocative of Tolkien’s Tengwar script. While small features such as these are not normally mentioned in memorials sections, especially if the person is honoured to the same extent as Tolkien, I feel as though- Exeter being his Almer Mater- these are worthy of note. 2A00:23C4:E851:C701:3939:1849:9B84:8BFD (talk) 07:17, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The bust is pictured in the article. The font's style may indeed be somewhat Tengwaroid, but I don't see any reliable sources which make that point. If one can be found, we could add a comment or footnote to the image caption, citing the source. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:20, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ancestry[edit]

I have a suggestion with the Ancestry part of the Article. Instead of "Tolkein was English, and thought of himself as so." It should be more along the lines of "Tolkein was primarily of English Descent, he also had some Prussian German Ancestry on his Paternal side" In my opinion this would fit better when it comes to describing his Ancestry and would flow better into the information about his Paternal Ancestors. Morrison1543 (talk) 20:27, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but it's far too convoluted for the context, and it's actually ambiguous about whether it's describing his view or later research, so best we don't go there. The existing statement reflects his views well enough. Chiswick Chap (talk) 00:06, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Tolkien, J. R. R.; Anderson, Douglas Allen (2002). The Annotated Hobbit: The Hobbit, or There and Back Again (Rev. and expanded ed.). Boston, Mass.: Houghton Mifflin. p. 210. ISBN 978-0-618-13470-0.

[1]