Talk:Israel Zangwill

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Untitled[edit]

Where did he die? Some sources say Preston, and others Midhurst? David Martland 08:40, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)


"Land without a people"

He did not coin the phrase. He simply did not. Look at the Shaftesbury article. It was a Christian usage that Zangwill imitated. Not one he originated.

Stop it - Suldana. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.35.59 (talk) 00:37, 29 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Shaftebury once said "A country without a nation for a nation without a country", which is another phrase. Zangwill coined the phrase "Land without a people" more than 50 years later. He might have been inspired by Shaftebury, but that is a different question. Suladna (talk) 21:23, 29 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What Zangwill actually wrote, in the New Liberal Review in December, 1901, was “Palestine is a country without a people; the Jews are a people without a country.”

The phrase was Christian. Zangwill admists that he borrowed it from Shaftesbury, see: Garfinkle, Adam M., “On the Origin, Meaning, Use and Abuse of a Phrase.” Middle Eastern Studies, London, Oct. 1991, vol. 27, No. 4.

There is no evidence that Zangwill every used the phrase in the form "land without a people." Somebody may have. It just wasn't Zangwill. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.35.32 (talk) 00:25, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Zangwill and his play The Melting Pot[edit]

Reference needs to be made of Zangwill's authorship of the play The Melting Pot, which was first staged in the United States in 1908.


This page is incredibly biased towards a Zionist narrative Zangwill said "Palestine proper has already its inhabitants. The pashalik of Jerusalem is already twice as thickly populated as the United States, having fifty-two souls to the square mile, and not 25% of them Jews ..... [We] must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the [Arab] tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population, mostly Mohammedan and accustomed for centuries to despise us." (see voice of Jerusalem by Israel Zangwill page 92 http://books.google.ie/books?id=fFwqLZvZEtUC&) The claim he said Palestine was unpopulated is only half the story in regard to his views on the matter which seemingly changed over time moreover the explanation of why he said this in the first place ie: that there were no Palestinians calling themselves as such is an outright lie, Palestinian nationalism can clearly be traced to the 1800's. 78.16.101.144 (talk) 21:29, 25 January 2009 (UTC) Seán[reply]

Birth date[edit]

There are almost as many ghits for 14 February 1864 as there are for 21 January 1864. The Russian article has 14 February. This cannot be explained by any difference in calendars (the Julian-Gregorian gap was 12 days, but this is 24 days), nor would that be relevant anyway, as he was born in London. So, what's with this 14 February date? -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 12:57, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This (note 66) doesn't explain how the 14 February error originated, but it does confirm his birth certificate clearly states he was born on 21 January 1864. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:52, 9 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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"The prime thinker behind the territorial movement"[edit]

The "territorial movement" refers to the Jewish Territorialist Organization where Israel Zangwill's name is quoted several times ; it can not refer to Homeland for the Jewish people where Israel Zangwill's name never appears. The link was misleading.--2A01:CB00:980:7A00:85E7:6B4:2061:B16F (talk) 22:24, 2 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

More redirects (pen-names!)[edit]

We do have J. Freeman Bell (althogh it is nowhere mentioned inside the article; used for works written in collaboration), but two are missing: "Countess von S." and "Marshallik". This according to the well written, but largely unsourced Jewish names article. Please checknd add. Thanks, Arminden (talk) 16:59, 5 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Zionism and the Roads Not Taken 1880-1948[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 15 February 2023 and 11 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): 21FUN21 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Miamiheat12, Camel Intellectual.

— Assignment last updated by Dolly City (talk) 19:26, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Questionable tone[edit]

Some of the article content in the subsection of Jewish Politics comes off as having a dramatic, literary, and inappropriately emotional tone. It also is not very clear.

"They were both writers or 'men of letters' - imagination that engendered understanding. Baron Albert Rothschild had little to do with the Jews. On Herzl's visits to London, they co-operated closely." -- What does this first sentence mean? And who is "they" in the last sentence here? Is it Nordau & Zangwill? Or is it Herzl, Nordau, and Zangwill? Or is it Herzl, Nordau, Zangwill, and Rothschild?

"In a debate at the Article Club in November 1901 Zangwill was still misreading the situation: 'Palestine has but a small population of Arabs and fellahin and wandering, lawless, blackmailing Bedouin tribes.'[29] Then, in the dramatic voice of the Wandering Jew, 'restore the country without a people to the people without a country. (Hear, hear.)...'" What is happening here? What is this Article Club? The "situation" is ambiguous -- do you mean the situation at the club or the situation in Palestine? The opening clause of the second sentence lacks a subject and a verb, making it very confusing as to what it's talking about. Why is the Wandering Jew reference important? What is the "(Hear, hear)" doing in the middle? I understand all these things now only because I copy-and-pasted the title of the source in the citation into Google, and found an image of the 24 page speech and read the ending.

Consider: "In a 1901 speech to an academic club in London, Zangwill seemed to still misunderstand the situation in Palestine, stating, '[insert quote]'. Towards the end of speech Zangwill made the following statement: 'restore the country without a people to the people without a country... For we have something to give as well as to get. We can sweep away the blackmailer—be he Pasha or Bedouin—we can make the wilderness blossom as the rose, and build up in the heart of the world a civilization that may be a mediator and interpreter between the East and the West.'[29]" Helpandbehelped 8218 (talk) 22:11, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are still problems and this article needs a lot of work. "Seemed to still misunderstand the situation in Palestine" is an opinion in Wikivoice, even though Zangwill himself later admitted to this. The Article Club was not an academic club but rather a private club populated by high-society types like politicians, senior public servants, diplomats and business leaders. Zerotalk 03:01, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cool, thank you for the response. I'm new to this and I find this very exciting. Do you have any resources on the Article Club?
And why is "seemed to still misunderstand the situation in Palestine" an opinion? He expressed that he believed it was uninhabited or sparsely inhabited when in fact it was not. When an explicit belief does not adhere to the facts of the world it is a misunderstanding, no? Helpandbehelped 8218 (talk) 15:28, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair question. According to WP:NOR we are not supposed to provide our own analysis, but only report the analysis provided by published sources. At the same time, some common sense is allowed. In this example there are two issues. Maybe he did understand the situation but chose to misrepresent it for political reasons; that could be covered by a rewording. More seriously, some scholars claim that Zangwill wasn't referring to a negligible population but rather the nonexistence of national sentiment among the population, and they base this on his use of "a people" rather than just "people". I believe that is wrong, but I don't know of a good source stating that it is wrong. Btw, I'm waiting on a source about the Article Club. Zerotalk 02:02, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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