Talk:Tocharians

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zhang Qian[edit]

Regarding the sentence

Zhang Qian travelled the area westward to visit Central Asia, during the 2nd century BC.

which was tagged as citation needed, the new reference (Markey, "China's Western Horizon: Beijing and the New Geopolitics of Eurasia", p120) does not support this, saying only

The emissary Zhang Qian, remembered in the Han dynasty annals for his travels through Central Asia in the second century BCE and for mentioning the existence of "Shendu" (India), is also credited for opening China's imperial relations with Parthia.

We do not know what route Zhang Qian took on his way west. The source text (in Shiji and Han Shu) says only that he rushed westward from the Xiongnu to Dayuan. I will therefore remove the above sentence. Kanguole 23:22, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for giving this much attention to detail, however, with all due respect, I think deleting the sentence is a stretch. While my original source might not have explicitly stated that Zhang Qian went through the Tarim Basin, it did mention that he took the caravan route. Now, I do think that everything on this project should be as accurately cited as possible, so I don't see any wrong in removing this citation. But to say that the statement is unsupportable based on our own readings of the Shiji or Han Shu is original research. Most secondary sources I have seen do lend enough weight to the view that Zhang Qian went through the Tarim Basin, both westward and eastward. So we could just re-word the content and re-cite it.
From Thant Myint-U, p.47: After many grueling years of travel and barbarian captivity, he eventually found his way across the desert wastes of the Tarim Basin to what is now Afghanistan, before returning home a hero to the Han court.
From Brunn, Toops and Gilbreath, p.24: Zhang Qian did travel from Chang'an (Xi'an) to the Tarim Basin, Fergana Valley, Bactria (Afghanistan) and Sogdiana (Uzbekistan) and brought this knowledge back to the Han court
From Mairs, p.367: Zhang Qian returned to China, he took the route along the southern mountains of the Tarim basin (Sima: 3159).
From di Cosmo, p.396:
Extended content
The discovery of ancient societies of Central Asia (the "Western Regions" of Chinese Historical texts) is associated wjth the expedition of Zhang Qiang, the envoy sent by the emperor Wudi (140-87 B.C.) to explore the West in an attempt to find allies against the nomadic empire od the Xiongnu (Gardiner-Gardner [1986]). Zhang Qian spent years in Central Asia, partly travelling, partly held in captivity by the Xiongnu. The knowledge gathered by Zhang Qiang, naturally coloured by the circumstances of the mission, still constitutes the basis of our understanding of the societies around the Tarim Basin. Of these, [...] forty seven are located in the Tarim basin adjacent regions, including the Pamirs, the Tianshan mountains, the Ili region, and eastern Xinjiang"
I just don't see how we could have a subsection about the Tarim Basin without mentioning such an important event, however we choose to phrase it. - Hunan201p (talk) 17:25, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We know that he returned by the southern route (i.e. not through the Tocharian cities). We don't know his outward route. The only one of these citations that comes close to saying is Brunn et al, and that quote is very vague. Kanguole 17:37, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You have found a general history of China that gives a brief account of Zhang Qian's mission, saying its object was an alliance with the Kangju. However, there are several more specialist sources that discuss Zhang Qian's mission in detail, e.g.
  • Hulsewé, A.F.P. (1979). China in Central Asia, the Early Stage: 125 B.C.–A.D. 23: An Annotated Translation of Chapters 61 and 96 of the History of the Former Han Dynasty. Leiden: E.J. Brill. p. 41. ISBN 978-90-04-05884-2.
  • Millward, James A. (2021). Eurasian Crossroads: A History of Xinjiang (new and revised ed.). London: Hurst & Company. p. 20. ISBN 978-1-78738-334-0.
  • Yü, Ying-shih (1986). "Han foreign relations". In Twitchett, Dennis; Loewe, Michael (eds.). The Cambridge History of China, Volume 1: The Ch'in and Han Empires, 221 BC–AD 220. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp. 377–462. ISBN 978-0-521-24327-8. p. 407.
They state explicitly that the aim of the mission was to secure an alliance with the Yuezhi against the Xiongnu, and they explain why the Han thought this a good prospect: they knew that the Yuezhi had suffered a disastrous defeat at the hands of the Xiongnu in Gansu and fled west. They also state that on the outward leg, after escaping from the Xiongnu heartland north of the Gobi, Zhang Qian headed west to the Ili Valley, the last known location of the Yuezhi, which seems not to fit with Gerscher's colourful story about the Tarim. He then followed the trail of the Yuezhi though several lands, including Kangju, until he finally found them on the Amu Darya, but was unable to interest them in revenge against the Xiongnu. Kanguole 00:02, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

infobox[edit]

I have reverted a change from {{infobox ethnic group}} to {{infobox country}}, because the topic of this article is not a former country, but a people, who lived in several city-states. Kanguole 19:30, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The general date/period at which Tocharian ceases to be spoken/Tocharians assimilate to a degree sufficient to be considered ethnically part of their suzerains is unclear.[edit]

Maybe a bit more clarity here would help, specifically around the Tang dynasty section? Tuvalu Pareto (talk) 02:21, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Genetics[edit]

Somebody suggested that "... A leading contender is the Afanasievo culture, ..." as origin of the Tocharians. To my humble knowledge this is impossible because the Afanasevo is R1b, while Xiaohe, for example is overwhelmingly R1a (Data from Quiles allancientdna). I wonder who has any genetic different evidence.HJJHolm (talk) 07:13, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Only if one assumes that the Xiaohe people were Tocharian speakers. However, the Tocharians were of a different place and time. Kanguole 07:40, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]