Talk:Alice Springs

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Comment[edit]

In the section "Preschool, primary and secondary" it states: Over 3,843 primary and secondary students are enrolled in schools in Darwin. Shouldn't that read "in Alice Springs" - not "in Darwin"?

I noticed that the link to <<Hermannsburg>> takes you to the page for Hermannsburg, Germany. (MB)

Fixed - thanks for noticing --AYArktos 3 July 2005 10:01 (UTC)

There is incorrect information in the climate section as Alice Springs is in the southern hemisphere so the hot months are Dec/Jan rather than Jun/July as it reports. The maximum temperature at Alice will have occured in the months Dec/Jan not Jun/July!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.45.123.99 (talk) 23:20, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Page name[edit]

Isn't the convention for Australian places to have the location at its name unless it needs to be disambiguated? I think this page should be al Alice Springs, not Alice Springs, Northern Territory.--nixie 22:23, 3 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No, the convention is for automatic disambiguation except for capital cities - see Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(city_names)#Australia. Regards--A Y Arktos 02:52, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox[edit]

I have added an Australian city infobox for Alice Springs to replace the CIA style map and bring in line with other Australian cities - any info regarding Mayor / Population / area etc would be much appreciated.

I also need to update the location map as the page currently links to the Brisbane map; can someone point me in the direction of the SVG source file for undertaking this task. Cheers! BrisbanePom 13:37, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Good job, I've added some info to the infobox, but it's still missing a few things. I've also made all web references in the article in proper format and put under the references section as well. This article keeps improving really well. Bobo is soft 04:11, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Aboriginal cultures[edit]

What are the particular Aboriginal cultures and language groups who live in Alice Springs? The article isn't specific about this. I suppose Warlpiri is one. Badagnani 00:24, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think the main/nost populous peoples are the Arrernte. I found a reference to language groups spoken in town: http://www.alicespringsdesertpark.com.au/kids/culture/groups.shtml wench (talk) 12:44, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Article & Pictures[edit]

In the last few weeks the article has been edited and expanded a lot by NT Tourism, which is good, but now the article needs sorting out and re-editing to get rid of lists, and other things. Also there is a lot of picture's! We need to get rid of some picture's as wikipedia isn't flickr, and too many picture's in an article are not good. ImperialAssassin ~ 20:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Correct; I've trimmed a few, but more could be cut. And too many apostrophes in words are not good, either. - DavidWBrooks 19:41, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a fan of pictures, but I agree - there are quite a few. They were left-justified and getting all over the text, and even right-justifying them leaves them sloppily spilling over their topics. I'm in favor of disposing of the departing runway. I'd say the Araluen photo too but it is a major thing in town. The trouble is the other photos are all fairly accurate with regards to what they portray and it's importance to the town... Any ideas? Can we stick them all in a grid or something?wench (talk) 13:03, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is a "gallery" function, which clumps photos into one spot. Hunt around and you'll find it on some articles and you can see how the coding works. I dislike excess photos, too, but personally I think the current article works OK. It's right on the edge of having too many pictures, though. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 13:11, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Measurements[edit]

Personally, I am offended by the exclusion of non-metric measurments to accompany the data and statistics listed only in metric units. I regularly view lambasting of various things "American" (referring to the USA) that contain an America-centric slant with exclusion of non-American viewpoints. What is "good for the goose is good for the gander," right?68.13.191.153 14:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Normal Wikipedia style (per WP:UNITS)is to give measurements using both systems. Because metric is used in Australia, a distance in kilometers should be first in this article, but the mileage should follow in parentheses. JamesMLane t c 23:45, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I love that the first modern republic is the last bastion of imperial measures.Majurawombat (talk) 11:04, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Center vs. Centre?[edit]

How do Australians spell this word? We have in History->Early city: "Almost in the exact center of the continent..." but I would think that it would be spelled/spelt "centre". 4.242.147.252 02:46, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Correct, Australians spell it 'centre'. --Zamphuor 04:00, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

American influence[edit]

Some time ago I took issue with this section. I continue to take issue. The source for the section http://www.alicesprings.nt.gov.au/about_alice/american.asp substantiates the population claim (2000) but makes no mention of "the American population still celebrating all major festivals, including Halloween, Independence Day and Thanksgiving, a portion of the Australian citizens engage in the festivities from time to time." I believe the inclusion of this information creates a disproportionate impression.

From the ABS population statistics [1] 3.6% of the population were born in the Americas, 6.2% were born in north-west Europe. 18.4% of the population are indigenous, 8.9% of the population speak a language other than English at home (though whether that is an indigenous language or another non-Australian language is not clear).

This section is an example in my view of Tendentious editing - in other words it is not neutral point of view as it gives undue weight to a minority group in the population. That there is also a section on the indigenous population and tourists does not adequately mitigate - I do not believe that American citizens come third in weighting for minorities after that. If they do, there needs to be additional sources to support the weighting in the article, including reasons why the references to Halloween and Thanksgiving should be kept.--Golden Wattle talk 00:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Have changed 'North American Influence' to 'American Influence'. I am a Canadian, plus a member of the Commonwealth in good standing, (don't celebrate Independence Day) and many Canadians dislike being lumped in with the United States as 'North Americans'. 74.12.131.252 (talk) 15:55, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]


then you shouls change "North Americans" to "United States citizens" or some such. By amending to "Americans" then the Canadians are still included as are indeed the citizens of the US, the Mexicans, the Brazilians, the Chileans and the original aboriginal Indians. Cheers, J ----.

Ok, regarding the Americans in town - First, I dropped them down under the demographics headline. As is, the segment on them isn't really worth a whole section unto itself, unless someone wants to add more info. More info is always good. Also changed the term "Influence" in some areas to "presence" or "population". I don't really see much documentation of "influence" in the town; unless you can dig up some statistics on how the Yanks influence the Aussies in town it's an inaccurate word.
Best of luck on the statistics though; I think the trouble with the entire section on tourism and itinerant populations and foreigners is hampered by the complete lack of statistical evidence online. I tried looking for anything to back up known, obvious facts about population surges in response to major events and could not find a word. Anyone out there able to track down even a snippet of a news article about the hordes of non-residents descending on town for major events or the like? I think the local paper, the Advocate, actually has stuff in their archives (how accurate those numbers would be is another issue entirely) but the woodpulp-only Advocate isn't online/searchable, mores' the pity. wench (talk) 12:39, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Recreation & Cats[edit]

I find the posting of material relating to the killing & eating of felines under 'Recreation' very bizarre. I also question its notability as it really has little to nothing at all to do with Alice Springs culture or lifestyle. Djbass (talk) 03:27, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Libraries in Alice Springs[edit]

The Alice Springs Public Library is undoubtedly in Alice Springs, but this article mentions the Nevil Shute Memorial Library. Some Australian who knows about it should make the additions or corrections here. --DThomsen8 (talk) 17:02, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A debate on the Socal aspect[edit]

Im debating on the part where it says "most are welcome" shouldnt that say "Most are welcome if they conform to modernised fashion??" I wear a flatcap and because Im younger then the bulk who wear the exact style(elderly guys) and I find the bulk of Alice Springs is VERY hostile towards those who choose to look different and tend to alienate themselves from those who dont look Australian(I am Australian but English loving)by their standards and sterotyping. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.217.216.55 (talk) 07:49, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. Jafeluv (talk) 08:41, 29 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Alice Springs, Northern Territory → Alice Springs — Entirely unnecessary disambiguation. Per WP:AT, articles should be at their common name, which is undisputedly "Alice Springs". The former consensus for mandatory disambiguation of Australian populated places cannot be said to apply any more given the discussion at Talk:Whyalla#Requested move, Talk:Geraldton#Requested move and Talk:Ballarat#Requested move. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 22:08, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Alice Springs redirects to Alice Springs, Northern Territory and Alice Springs (disambiguation) contains three people without articles in their own right who use "Alice Springs" as a psuedonym and one fictional character who also does not command an article in their own right. There can be no dispute that this article is the primary topic for the term "Alice Springs". -- Mattinbgn (talk) 22:14, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alice Springs (disambiguation) should be deleted as it does not disambiguate articles. Alice Springs should be the name of the article about the town, so support the move. --Bduke (Discussion) 22:23, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move - I'm a fan of disambiguation pages, but in this case it seems appropriate to make this the page for Alice Springs. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 00:07, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Move. I now support the removal of compulsory disambiguation. –Moondyne 00:45, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support "Alice Springs" NT is clearly a primary topic with the searches from the US Google showing the NT's Alice Spring's (You will need a US proxy to see it or it will change to .au [or whatever country you are in] which changes the result, but don't for get to undo the proxy like I just did when posting this). Bidgee (talk) 01:00, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support No need for Northern Territory to be on the end of the article title. Especially when you consider Alice Springs redirects here, I doubt many people find this page expecting something else, and if they are, they can also follow the link at the top of the page to the disambiguation page. Anoldtreeok (talk) 02:26, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support in this instance - iconic name well known throughout and outside Australia. Orderinchaos 12:45, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support- The Northern Territory town is clearly the primary topic for this title, and there is no longer any support for the compulsory disambiguation of Australian place names. Reyk YO! 22:22, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - No need to predisambiguate a non-ambiguos article. Alice Springs is clearly the town in the NT. - Nick Thorne talk 11:11, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support barely needs "Springs", let alone "Northern Territory". Melburnian (talk) 13:37, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Additional precision is not necessary for disambiguation, therefore it is not necessary at all.. --Born2cycle (talk) 22:29, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:Commonname. Flamarande (talk) 11:12, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

--203.33.166.104 (talk) 04:49, 28 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Crime[edit]

I'm sorry but even if you have sources you cannot say "The main source of crime is Alice Spring's large unemployed population of Aboriginal residents" as is written in the Crime section near the end of the article. You can say that unemployment is a reason for the crime but not because of native Australians. Sure, you got it from a newspaper or other source but please stop to think about the target audience of some of those newspapers - i.e. conservative, right-wingers. --Xania talk 07:17, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The sources listed also did not back this statement up at all, they just gave examples of Aboriginal crime. I've removed the statement. Hexyhex (talk) 03:40, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've removed the statement again, as I do not think it is adequately supported by the sources, but I was just reverted. @Mark Marathon: Could you please explain which of the four sources you believe supports the statement "A controversial source of crime is Alice Springs' population of Aboriginal residents" and how? —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:03, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
To have an article on Alice and not mention the Indigenous crime problem is ridiculous. It has been a major source, if not the prime source, of news concerning Alice for the past 10 years. It is also a major local issue. Claiming that any mention of the subject is POV is patently absurd.
Almost as absurd is the attempt to bowdlerise the article into saying that Aboriginals are "blamed" for the crime. As though there were some dispute. Nobody at all disputes that the Aboriginal population is responsible for most of the crime in the town. I've provided stats on violent crime (75% Aboriginal offenders). If it becomes necessary I will find the stats on sexual assaults, child abuse, property crime etc. All in the range of 60%-90%. These are simply statistics. I have also changed the wording to paraphrase what all the experts have been saying: indigenous living conditions in Alice are horrendous, and that is understandably leading to criminality, as such living conditions do everywhere in the world. An influx of people from more remote communities due to creation of dry communities via the intervention is not helping.
All that I wanted included was a simple statement that the Aboriginal population was a significant cause of crime in Alice springs. Not a statement that is in any way controversial. This constant bowdlerisation and removal has forced me to paraphrase closely what the RS are saying and always have been saying to avoid this going on for months. I suspect that the result will be even less pleasing to the people who objected to the original statement. Unfortunately the Aboriginal crime problem is highly notable (dozens of news stories from dozens of outlets on the most basic Google search) and it is well referenced with reliable sources. It has to be included, but rather then a single brief sentence we've been forced to include a paragraph. That's not undue given the notability of the issue over the past 10 years. But it is more than I would have settled for.
Cest a vieMark Marathon (talk) 06:42, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for clarifying the information and adding better sources. The section looks pretty good to me now, except for two problems which I've tagged. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:10, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Can we clarify the 2019 information? Saying it's on a downturn in 2019 is a little vague. Beyondheat (talk) 08:14, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Alice[edit]

Has "Alice" in "Alice Springs" anything to do with "Alice in Wonderland"? Australia is often called "Down under". Alice went "down". "Wonder" in swedish is "under", so "Alice i Underlandet" can have a double interpretation in swedish. The origin of "Alice" in "Alice Springs" should be mensioned, whatever it is! / 109.58.51.134 (talk) 02:14, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article says this, although perhaps it should be more prominent: The settlement was optimistically named Alice Springs after the wife of the former Postmaster General of South Australia, Sir Charles Todd. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 14:23, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Australian woman?[edit]

The lead claims Alice Springs was named after an Australian woman. Is this a fair statement? My understanding is that Alice Todd was born Alice Bell in England and took up permanent residence in Australia at age 18 but remained a British subject throughout her life, naturalization not being an option in those days. Is permanent residence in Australia sufficient to qualify one as an Australian? --Vaughan Pratt (talk) 17:35, 17 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is that problem. There is also the problem with the use of the near-weasel word "significant". Who decides significance, and on what grounds? If it is purely on the basis of size, then why is any town significant, and who decides what the cutoff for significance is? If it's not on the basis of size, then why is Katherine, for example, not significant? Both are major towns and service centres in the NT. I can think of a least two other towns over 5, 00 people named after Australian women.
More importantly, the claim is not referenced. Without going though the name of every Australian town and researching its history it's impossible to know whether this claim s correct.Mark Marathon (talk) 02:53, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have no problem with the use of "significant," since non-measurable metrics based on a general consenses are a common part of English - and of wikipedia. But if the "only one named after a woman" aspect is unsourced, then I'd say just remove the sentence. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 12:10, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It would probably be difficult to verify that this is the only significant town named after a woman. Even if verified and supported, such an assertion needs an {{as of}} to avoid WP:DATED problems. For a bit more info about the naming, see [2] and [3]. Other sources with more info are easy to find. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 02:41, 3 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Lilydale, Victoria..." population of 13,887"..."is believed to have been named after either.............or the wife of an original settler named Lilly de Castella. HiLo48 (talk) 03:33, 3 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And this is why "significant" is essentially meaningless. Is Lillydale significant? Katherine certainly seems significant in the sense of being the second major service centre in the NT with a population of 10, 000. Gracemere has a population of 8, 000 which would seem to make it significant. Roma has a population of 7, 000 and is another major service centre (and these latter two once again bring up the issue of who qualifies as an Australian woman). Mary Kathleen is significant historically and so forth. "Significant" really doesn't mean anything. It's also not something that I think can can be decided on by consensus because we lack any appreciable number of editors who are able to judge whether places like Lillydale, Gracemere or Katherine are significant, never having lived in the area. That means were are going to have to try to decide significance based on information from external sources, which means essentially, any town sufficiently notable to qualify for a Wikipedia article should have enough significance to qualify for inclusion on the list, and it's going to be hard to argue against them.Mark Marathon (talk) 04:08, 3 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've deleted the sentence. If there's a good source, or an acceptable rewrite, it can be returned. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 20:28, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] 

I can only express my dissappointment at the deletion of the sentence and the frivolous reasons given for objection. To disparage Alice Todd for being a migrant, and for being a British Subject, ignores the fact that the national status of every single person born in Australia before the 26th January 1949 was "British Subject",and that a large percentage of the Australian population at the time were British Subjects born outside Australia. Other famous people, including William Charles Wentworth and many others were not born in Australia but have always been regarded as Australian. There is obviously no source for this sentence, it is obvious. An educated person in Europe or Asia should know Sydney and Melbourne and would quite likely heard of Alice Springs, as several famous books and films have been made about Alice Springs, but not Katherine or  any other of the Australian towns named after Australian women. Would it be acceptable if the term "internationally known" were to be used instead of "significant?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Plerdsus (talk • contribs) 06:29, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Mean temperatures.[edit]

Михаил Марчук, you can not go around adding material to a referenced section that is not supported by the reference. And you can not do original research to synthesise you own data. If the material you are adding does not com from the BOM, it can not be added o the section you are adding it to. That section is referenced to the BOM, and you can not just go slipping in other data from less reliable sources as though supported by the BOM. You can not under any circumstances synthesise you own data. You might have to read and try to understand WP:OR and especially WP:SYNTH. Quite simply "do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source... if a single source says "A" in one context, and "B" in another, without connecting them, and does not provide an argument of "therefore C", then "therefore C" cannot be used in any article." And that is exactly what you are trying to do. The BOM data gives a min and max for each month. If it does not use those data to calculate a mean then you can not do either. I have no idea how mean temperatures are calculated by actual Australian meteorologists so I have no idea if your figures are correct, or if means are calculated off hourly figures or daily figures rather than monthly maxima and minima. You are an anonymous editor, you are not an authority and you can not add material that is not attributable to a reliable source. Wikipedia relies on verifiability and there is no way to verify thet your figures are correct. They are simply a synthesis and I have no confidence that they are correct.Mark Marathon (talk) 05:42, 13 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me--Mr. Vladimirovic (talk) 09:09, 13 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Is the 'crime wave' from 2011 still a current issue?[edit]

In the opening section appears the sentence: "Alice Springs has faced many issues in recent years, largely stemming from an increase in crime and a strong racial divide that has existed for years in the town." with the reference being a news report from 2011 - is this still relevant? I'm currently in Alice Springs visiting from Melbourne and in the last two days I have been here around town haven't witnessed anything of the 'crime wave' or it's effects alluded to in the referenced article. 'Faced many issues in recent years' definitely reads as if the problem is ongoing - also is it 'many' or just one (the crime wave)? Norlesh (talk) 01:48, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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"murder capital"[edit]

Before this article makes a flat statement that Alice is the "murder capital" of Australia - whatever that means - note that other places are also so described, including Victoria(http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/crime-tsunami-victoria-records-more-homicides-than-nsw-and-qld-20160929-grr16h.html), all of NT (http://www.news.com.au/national/crime/the-northern-territory-has-the-highest-homicide-rate-in-australia/news-story/49b81f284c9500ea027a338e01271325) and even Adelaide (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-15/why-cant-adelaide-bury-murderous-capital-reputation/9249142). If we want to make a point about murder, then we should cite actual statistics, not vague phrases taken from tabloid papers. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 13:27, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, DavidWBrooks. Whole section is problematical (hence my next section below). Laterthanyouthink (talk) 03:53, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV re Crime section[edit]

I added this template here, as per the section on Crime in the Northern Territory. Both sections need to be reconciled, some repetition removed and in general reviewed and tidied up (which I don't have time to do now). No point in having differing info and sources, and the more detailed version should remain in the other article. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 03:53, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

None of which indicates that the material in this article is non-neutral. I'll remove the tag until someone can provide some specific concerns re-neutrality on t his talk page. Mark Marathon (talk)

Town or City[edit]

There is reference to the "city's" population. The article also refers to Alice Springs as a town. What are we going for? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.36.243.120 (talk) 00:51, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We have a link to the Alice Springs Town Council (local government) website in the External links section at the bottom of the page. That site clearly tells us it's a town, so not formally a city. I've made the necessary change in the text. Thanks for noticing the problem. HiLo48 (talk) 03:05, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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