Talk:The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

Major Themes?

I always thought one of the major themes in the Covenant series was the corrupting influence of power. The first series is based on the fact of Covenant's power, which he can't use without creating worse problems than already exist (use of the white gold will free Foul from the arc...). And the second series is the same--the venom put into Covenant makes him unable to use the power again without severe consequences. To me, that is the primary theme of the entire series. Pcrh 21:46, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

It's so funny how different people read the same things and see entirely different ideas in it! I don't see that theme in TCTC at ALL, in fact quite the opposite. To me it seems like power in Donaldson's world is neither corruptive, good nor evil. Indeed, he draws beings of immense power which behave in both 'good' and 'evil' ways. Covenant himself possesses the ultimate power in the Land, yet he is clearly a man, no more nor less, no more 'good' or 'evil' than your or I. He does indeed wield his power, in fact he ultimately merges with the power itself, but it scares the hell out of him with good reason. He recognizes that extreme power can wreak extreme havoc as easily as extreme good...but he can't control it very well!

The Lords are an excellent example. They wield tremendous power in the Land, and are essentially very good characters, but they can be corrupted, can be weak, and sometimes are just plain misguided in their use of power. The Bloodguard/Haruchai/Masters are another excellent example. Extremely powerful physically, their service is never perfect enough, or the object of their service is never perfect enough to justify their service. The use of their power never seems sufficient somehow.

I believe the real theme is that power is a tool, no more, no less. A distant relative of mine was attacked and killed by a psycho with a hammer...the same tool I use to help build people houses when I volunteer for Habit for Humanity. People are neither inherently 'good' nor 'bad', and neither is power. People and power are both far more complicated than that. Middlenamefrank 16:59, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I felt middlenamefranks critique is a more truthful and concrete review than the guys on the main page, thank you middlenamefrank They call me Mister Tibbs (talk) 16:57, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

What about the "Question of ethics" paper that the ochre robed man gives Covenant in the first book? I thought that was one of the biggest themes throughout the first trilogy and maybe even through all of the books. The question of whether ones actions in a dream/fantasy world define them morally in any way. When Covenant rapes Lena, is this okay because it is a dream for him? Is it okay for him to let the land perish because he might just wake up in a little bit anyway? No, he comes to the resolution that whether or not it is a dream, he finds beauty in it and wishes to preserve it. Anyway... that was an important theme for just me or did others think so too? I don't know how to make my IP show up after an edit...so my bad.

I wanted to throw in a few things i feel go nder themes, such as the corruption caused by despair, High Lord Kevin, Kelenbhrabanal (ranyhyn king), the Bloodguard, and even the giants, all met their destructive fate due to their despair. Kevin caused the ritual of destruction, Kelenbhrabanal sacrificed himself to no gain, the bloodguard broke their vow, and the giants gave up on living after the triplets were corrupted. I had something else, but I cant remember so il mention it later.--Cerin616 (talk) 00:17, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The comment about seeing different things is absolutely true. I had always thought that the novels were Covenant's own self-hatred writ large on the canvass of the Land - itself a metaphor for Covenant's own leprosy-ravaged body. Odd. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 19:02, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

A major theme that Stephen R. Donaldson consistently illustrates in each novel of the First, Second and Last Chronicles is the innate perilousness of exercising power, with two accompanying aspects. First, almost any exercise of power unleashes unintended and lasting secondary effects. Second, the wielder's level of self-awareness and intent is directly correlated with the positive or negative results of his, her or its exercise of power. High Lord Mhoram's rumination near the beginning of "The Power That Preserves" illustrates the inherent conundrum of power: "He could taste in his own mouth the desperation which had led High Lord Kevin to Kiril Threndor and the Ritual of Desecration. Power was dreadful and treacherous. When it was not great enough to accomplish its wielder's desires, it turned against the hands which held it. High Lord Elena's fate only repeated the lesson of Kevin Landwaster; he had possessed far more power than the new Lords could ever hope for, now that the Staff of Law was gone; and all his might had achieved nothing but his own ineluctable despair and the ruin of the Land. Mhoram feared to share that danger by revealing his secret. He was appalled to think he was in such peril himself."

Numerous examples reinforce the first aspect of the perilous of power (i.e., unintended and lasting secondary effects). The Haruchais' Vow to Lord Kevin unleashed vast Earthpower, unintentionally imbuing the 500 Bloodguard with a form of immortality lasting thousands of years. Covenant's bargain with the Ranyhyn unintentionally tied them to the Land for decades, preventing them from escaping the ravages Lord Foul's preternatural winter.

Likewise, Donaldson highlights many instances of the second aspect of the perilousness of power (i.e., the level of the wielder's self-awareness leading to positive or negative results). One particularly obvious example is the emotionally conflicted High Lord Elena's breaking of the Law of Death to summon dead High Lord Kevin from his grave to oppose Lord Foul. But there are countless other examples. On the positive side, High Lord Mhoram's internal enlightenment allows him to effectively oppose Satansfist's tactics during the siege of Revelstone and Thomas Covenant's final exercise of power at the end of White Gold Wielder incarnates enlightenment's ability to negate even Lord Foul's white-gold induced earth-shattering power. On the negative side we can appreciate the corrupting influence of power on the hopelessly un-self-aware cavewight Drool Rockworm and numerous ill effects conjured by the terminally corrupt Kasreyn of the Gyre.

Tom Snerdley (talk) 07:04, 30 June 2013 (UTC) Tom Snerdley

Fantastic viewpoints guys, wThey call me Mister Tibbs (talk) 16:57, 3 December 2014 (UTC)hen I first read these books I was able to see Conenants disease in so many there people different problems, despair is in all addictions, victims of any sort, also self hate, but i couldn't begin to say anything as good as the stuff above peeps have.

Duplication?

I'm just wondering (in the nicest possible way) why this page exists, when the same material is covered in Stephen_R._Donaldson. Surely the wiki does not need both? Nevilley

I think so. It allows more space for the world of TC, and allows direct redirects. (I actually came here, because I needed a link to a SF book where Giants are friendly, for the Mythology Giants page) - Marco V

Btw, TC did have leprosy in the other wolrd, but it was cured by the "woundclay" (I read a translation, don't know the original english world). Soon after he realised he was cured, he raped Lena.

"hurtloam" in English. But woundclay was close enough.--Barry 18:30, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

I'd like to start working on doing a little expanding. Major characters, races, etc., but I'm waiting until I finish rereading the 1st and 2nd Chronicles.--Barry 18:30, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

fwiw - I think this material belongs here too. Wiki is becoming a store of anything/everything. What a nice "re-living" of these books for me, 20 years removed from when I read them, some of whose scenes still stand out in my mind today (e.g., "Nom"). I might someday have though of doing a general net search on them and may have found the "official" pages; but while on Wiki I am much more inclined to mine past read books, visited places, etc.

Dude! Don't entionmay the andgorgonsay!

To whomsoever posted the pig-latin...HAH! I #@%&$!* love it! (...sorry to edit and not contribute, but hey, I gotta give props!...) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.50.52.85 (talk) 04:11, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to merge Caesure

I'd do this myself, but haven't read the book so can't be certain of the accuracy of the article. JulesH 19:54, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• merge and redirect Thatcher131 08:43, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

{{supportvote}} - as there is little in the main article so far - :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)} 13:03, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

there is now an article for the novel The Runes of the Earth into which this should more properly be merged. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 12:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Merge per Kevinalewis. --M1ss1ontomars2k4 23:46, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Proposal for work on SRD's Covenant and related articles

As you might be able to guess, I'm a fan of the Chronicles. These articles seem like they could use better formatting and arrangement, and I'm willing to help. I'd prefer to avoid treading on any toes, despite the "be bold" admonishment.

My ideal would be an article for every Covenant book, but that might not be justified given Donaldson's small following. I'd settle for a detailed seperate article on each "Chronicles" set (first, second, and last). Naturally, the information could then be removed from the article on Mr. Donaldson himself, and replaced with a link to the proper articles.

Are there any comments, or objections to my going ahead with this idea? -Kasreyn 08:07, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

No objection at all, quite the reverse. This is work that needs doing, Please can I vote for an article per book (i.e. 7 so far), with "Maybe" one for each triolgy as well but this is a secondary thing. I'm quite willing to help with this process if it is agreeable. One more thing could the articles please be structured using the Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/ArticleTemplate pattern of the writing of such articles. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)} 09:35, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, a different section for each of the series and/or books would be nice. Furthermore, caesures should certainly be moved into the article - if there are no separate articles for each book, why have one for a term from one of the books? -RetardudGenius 18:26, 04 March 2006 (UTC)

Just to chip in, I came across this page and was surprised that the first chronicle has a page per book (and the first book of the third chronicle) but the second chronicle has only entries for each book on the page (and not in hugely less detail than the single book pages) and no individual pages. I would at least consider adding a redirect from a page called, for instance White Gold Wielder to this page - but separate pages per book would be better. I'll do this unless anyone more 'owning' of the page wants to --Mortice 16:52, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Done it - moved the 2nd chronicle book synopses into separate pages and changed this page to have links. I don't know enough about 'Gilden-Fire' to know if that should be done as well --Mortice 18:49, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Words of Power?

Should something be added about the words of power? (You know, "Melenkurion abatha! Duroc minas mil khabaal!")

Hmm, possibly, but really almost nothing is known about them but their names. We don't really know what effect they have, aside from possibly boosting spells or banishing/binding/exorcising Ravers - and even these are pure speculation which Donaldson refuses to answer. As far as I can tell, their purpose is merely to add strangeness and a feeling of fantastic history to the Land, plus they just sound cool. I'd find it hard justifying their inclusion, since they're completely incidental and have nothing to do with the plot. -Kasreyn 11:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I agree - they could be given a passing mantion in a larger article, nothing more. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)} 14:38, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Ugh.

Must we really have those godawful covers by Darrel K. Sweet on the article? If I remember correctly, even Donaldson himself has joined in the general disgust over their ugliness. Besides, those editions are out of print as far as I know. Covers of the new paperback edition - with the ring - would definitely be easier on the eyes. Kasreyn 22:02, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I liked the British printed covers myself, but those are awful and garish. Douglasnicol 15:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's a sample of the initial British covers...

http://www.eternalnight.co.uk/books/d/donaldsonstephen/lordfoulsbane.jpg

Far, far superior. Anything would be better than what we currently have. I would prefer a photo of the interior of a litterbox to anything by Darrel K. Sweet. He draws every single character the same - thin, hard-bitten face with a red nose. Someone should teach him how to draw flesh. Kasreyn 01:50, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

The British covers also seem to bear some relevance, as I would imagine the Lord Fouls Bane cover is an image of Kevin's Watch.

Sorry guys but these are the covers I grew up reading. I don't object if someone has the new bookscovers and wants to scan them in. I think we should leave them until then. FrankWilliams 20:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Please, not the covers with the YELLOW gold ring. This is not LotR, these are about Thomas Covenant, WHITE Gold Wielder. Besides which, Donaldson hates the newest covers. Loathes them. Now, the previous covers to that would be excellent. The ones that create one continuous portrait. Beautiful landscapes and characters. (Michael Herring is the artist)

I'd would tend to agree that the orignal covers were something I grew up with and should remain in the article. However, why not also include the currently printed covers with them. Coradon

FTR, I'm very sad that there are no Darrel K Sweet covers for the final four novels. I think they're amazing. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 10:23, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Elohim

Is anyone familiar enough with the Elohim (they are mentioned under giants, and are featured in the second chronicles linden avery series) to write a race article for them? They are missing. I would then be able to post a link to the Chronicles on the Elohim article, as I do believe they deserve mention. Consider that one was quite essential to reforming the staff of law. Tyciol 17:17, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

List and description of locations important to the story

We should include the important locations, with a description of them and perhaps their role in the story. Though I imagine that pages will be setup with a synopsis for each of the books, I feel that seperate pages for the various location will flesh out more of the background of each book. Currently I can see adding pages for:

Revelstone

Mount Thunder/Kiril Threndor
Trothguard/Revelwood
Landsdrop
Mithil Stonedown
Coercri
Foul's Creche
Kevin's Watch
Grimmerdhore/Morrinmoss/Garroting Deep
Andelain
etc etc

Granted there is no reason to nickle and dime it with every place mentioned in the Chronicles, but some of the important ones should have more detailed info. Coradon

I am currently trawling through the Covenant works in particular as time allows trying to edit The Land (fiction) Help is welcome. Feel free to leave notes and ideas on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Loyola/Covenant/ Loyola 11:06, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

There is another article on wikipedia that deals with this. Perhaps a cross-link or merge? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.228.195.207 (talk) 20:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Demondim

Why does the article call the Demondim semi-corporeal and link them with undead? Does this come from the 2004 book? Did I miss some other reference? Dan 23:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it, the Demondim were spirits who could possess people and creatures and even the dead. Coradon 15:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is new information revealed in Runes of the Earth. I asked the same question myself when this appeared here in this article, and I have verified it in the book. However, that is about all we know, relayed third-hand by a character in the book, not directly experienced any characters. The details may change as the last series unfolds. Maybe we should put a "Current Events" tag here! *grin* --Carboncopy 17:19, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

It is said in the book. Yet one must remember how "truth" was corrupted between Trilogy 1 and Trilogy 2. What is said of the Demondim may be the same situation. Loyola 07:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

He mentions the Demondim at some point in that "Gradual Interview" thingy on his website. --Starwed 12:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually the Demondim always were somewhat undead. The Viles could possess anything but they hated themselves and created the demondim. The Demondim were created using the dead and that gave them physical form. As well as i know they could raise the dead to fight along side of them. -Cerin616 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.78.15.19 (talk) 01:32, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

The 7 Wards.

Was there any information released concerning what the 3rd,4th,5th and 6th wards were, and where they were located? Thats been one of my main questions I've had over the last 20 years. Has anyone ever done some fan fiction concerning them? Coradon 15:35, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about fan fiction, but SRD has not given any more details on the other wards, either in his books or in interviews. He hints that they may become a factor in the Last Chronicles, but he is very circumspect on the subject. See the Gradual Interview at his website. -- Carboncopy 17:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

In The Wounded Land, when the Aumbrie of the Clave is breached, Covenant sees a great many items formerly used in the magic of the Council of Lords, which the Clave has cached away. Among the items are three caskets, which Covenant recognizes as the repositories of the Wards from the discovery of the Second Ward in Mount Thunder in Lord Foul's Bane. Later, during the soothtell, he perceives that sometime after the defeat of Lord Foul, the Council discovered the Third Ward, but, in line with Mhoram's decision to abandon Kevin's Lore as inherently destructive and inconsistent with the philosophy of peace, the search for the other wards was abandoned. Ellsworth 18:38, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

he didn't even bother bringing the wards up in the final chronicles; the only nods to any kind of lore are that he (1) drags in one more absurdly-powerful-yet-with-a-profound-weakness 'race' {the Insequent), (2) has Linden seek deeper understanding from Caerroil Wildwood (twice), (3) has Jeremiah realize suru-pa-maerl and anundivian yajna out of nowhere, and (4) has Linden learn the missing seventh Word of Power. okay, the nifty (5) is that we actually get to 'see' something the Viles left behind (other than the ur-viles and waynhim)... Dunno about fanfic; i barely have time to read the "professional" stuff in the first place! 71.212.81.117 (talk) 20:14, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm not certain, since it has been several years since I closely read all the books, but I do seem to recall someone saying (quite possibly gibbon na-mhoram) that after Covenant left the land in "The Power that Preserves" the lords DID find 2 or 3 more wards but just put them away because they didn't follow the teachings of Berek halfhand any longer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.202.76.126 (talk) 07:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

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Relationship with Lord of the Rings?

"It has a similarly complicated relationship with The Lord of the Rings."

Other than both being High Fantasy and featuring a very important ring, I don't see it. Indeed, Donaldson has said that TCTC needs the ring more than LOTR does: Covenenant has an emotional connection to it as his wedding ring, it wouldn't have made any difference to Frodo if there was "one 'amulet' to rule them all".

Would that make him "Frodo of the One Hand" instead of "Frodo of the Nine Fingers"?

Maybe if the author had included a bit of justification I'd be okay with the statement, but as it stands I think it should be deleted.--(unsigned comment by User:195.92.206.243)

The point is:

1. Both centre round a powerful ring, and a cosmic enemy who wants possession of it. However, in LOTR the message is unambiguous: never let him have it, and never use it yourself, power is essentially evil, the end never justifies the means, the aim is always to keep oneself morally pure whatever the cost in alienation. In TCTC this attitude is regarded as pusillanimous: there are times when you have to use powerful and dangerous weapons, with a very high probability that whichever way you choose it will turn out to be a mistake.

2. There are many parallels between the imaginary worlds: Lord Foul/Sauron, ravers/Nazgul, Cavewights/Orcs, Forestals/Ents, Andelain/Lorien, the Lords/the Wise, Ranyhyn/mearas; and even the military structure of Eomans and Eowards (or whatever they are called) sounds like the eored of Rohan. However, in each case there is a twist to show that Donaldson does not quite agree with Tolkien's attitudes: Cavewights are not necessarily evil creatures to be exterminated, Lord Foul may be the shadow side of one's own personality, the Lords include both sexes equally, and may be corrupted. Above all, while the Tolkien world is meant to be certainly objective, the Land may still be something happening inside the heads of humans from our world. It's not just "Tolkien made politically correct", it's also "Tolkien with more scope for moral ambiguity".

I don't think the article needs an essay along these lines; but the parallel with Tolkien has as much right to be there as the parallel with Wagner's Ring. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 10:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I cant really picture the cafve weights as orcs seeing as they werent a consistent reapearing creature. They were in the first series, but none of the others. I can see how you connect andelain and lorien, but i dont see them as similar either. Lorien was a kingdom, while andelain was just a beautiful land. And the ravers can somewhat be connected to nazgul... but there are significant differences. The nazgul were those corrupted by power, the ravers just hate everything. and the ravers have no physical form. -cerin616

The discrepancies you point out are merely evidence that Donaldson sought to do something more nuanced than make carbon copies of Tolkien entities. Parallels and analogs hold significance independent of nitpicking over how identical two things are(n't). and by the way, "first series, but none of the others" (indicating referral to the second and third, not just the second) is simply untrue; perhaps you decided to make this claim before the third series was finished? 71.212.81.117 (talk) 20:21, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Runes of the Earth

Isn't the cover shown for "Runes of the Earth" just the draft-stage book cover? As far as I know, that one was never used for the actual release - can anyone confirm? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:00, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Possible Movie?

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-film.html?2004-12/17/10.00.film —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.69.109.3 (talk) 20:20, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

No movie is forthcoming at this time. The official Stephen R Donaldson website says that a group was interested in producing a film, but they were unable to get funded. As of January 2007, they have stopped trying [1]. Carboncopy 19:47, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Im not sure how i feel about a movie... I just think that if a movie is made it will never be as powerful as the books... but at the same time i would like to see a movie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.78.15.19 (talk) 01:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

i seriously doubt a faithful movie could (a) be pulled off at all, (b) find a sizable/sympathetic audience. it would pretty much have to be an innovative 'labor of love' or a very tepid, dumbed-down or otherwise barely recognizable adaptation. moral ambiguity and emotional agonizing are horrendously difficult to convey, even in three-hour doses of otherwise-engaging screen fiction. it's the kind of story arc and character development that practically beg for audible telepathy or narration or some other kind of hamfisted exposition. 71.212.81.117 (talk) 02:12, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Major Characters

This page does not have a list of major characters. The "Peoples and Creatures" section is not that specific (at least, it has not been to this point). I recently removed a Berek paragraph on these grounds, but it was a nice summary of him, so I place it here for safekeeping should such a section be deemed necessary here on the main series page.

"Berek Halfhand Also known as: Lordfatherer, Earthfriend, Giantfriend, Heartthew. He He created the Lords system to rule the Land and was the original High Lord. Like Thomas Covenant, Berek was missing several fingers on one hand, though his were lost in battle. He was the first human to become sensitive to the earthpower in the Land. He used it to defeat the corrupt kingdom that was destroying the forests of the Land. During that war, he called forth the Fire Lions (beasts of earthpower resembling lava) from Mount Thunder (as did Covenant). He created the Staff of Law from the One Tree."

Carboncopy 19:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Wagner

"Many elements of the story correspond to those of Richard Wagner's epic "Ring Cycle", but with inverted values." Which elements are these? Which values? Apart from the ring and perhaps the breaking of Wotan's spear I can't think of any. Cavort (talk) 13:37, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Donaldson speaks directly (in the preface to The Real Story)about how his "Gap" books are based on Wagner's ring trilogy. I do not believe the Covenant books have anything to do with Wagner or the Ring saga. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.144.209.129 (talk) 01:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

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Dwarves and Elves?

The Stonedownors always reminded me a bit of Dwarves, and I considered the Woodhelvennin to be similar to Elves. Okay, there are many differences - possibly the most basic of which is that Dwarves and Elves are races different from Men, whereas Stonedownors and Woodhelvennin are Men with special inclination and powers. But nevertheless, I was surprised that this question was not yet raised on this page. Am I the only one who's thinking in this direction?
(Btw: I have definitely never read a more fascinating description of "special stone powers" than in TCTC 1!) Schellhammer (talk) 12:52, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think its a matter of the question never coming up before, but rather a point of Wikipedia not being the place for forum-style discussions. Not to sound harsh (bc I am not trying to be at all), but we would need a citation from a reputable, reliable and verifiable source that suggests the opposite numbers paralleling traditional high fantasy races with those presented in the TC novels. Without it, any such talk is speculation, and we have no truck with that here in the wiki-en. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 15:26, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, good point. :-) Schellhammer (talk) 14:08, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Why the name?

Should a paragraph on the name "Thomas Covenant" be added to the article (or another page, like the article on the people of the land)? I think the selection of "Thomas" as a first name is no coincidence but is linked to Doubting Thomas. Any suggestions on the surname? Schellhammer (talk) 13:05, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Nope, because that isn't what we do here; you'd be better off directing that sort of inquiry to a fan forum or whatnot. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 02:05, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

cov·e·nant (kv-nnt) n. 1. A binding agreement; a compact. See Synonyms at bargain. 2. Law a. A formal sealed agreement or contract. b. A suit to recover damages for violation of such a contract. 3. In the Bible, God's promise to the human race.

Donaldson didn't just chose this name arbitrarily. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.196.223.103 (talk) 18:01, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

If you had Donaldson mentioning this fact with references, I believe it would be well worth to put it in, but at the moment all we have is YOUR viewpoint, as the person above rightly says "this isn't what we do here" They call me Mister Tibbs (talk) 17:06, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Criticism

Gee, for a series which has NO SOURCED POSITIVE REVIEWS, the details of the series are quite thoroughly covered. i added a link to a book which did give the book credit. I think the idea on WP is to report on the coverage of a subject, not create fan pages. Did Locus, interzone, NYT, anyone, write so extensively about the plot, themes, characters? most of this is unsourced. (sorry for the shouting, just gets to me sometimes).Mercurywoodrose (talk) 08:09, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Future improvements

A related article has been deleted because it did not cite sources, but the contents were preserved at User:The Land/The Land (fiction). Some of that information could be used to improve this article, if properly referenced. Goustien (talk) 19:31, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

I also added a section on Motifs and Symbols that I thought was fairly uncontroversial, but it was deleted. It was not meant to be "original research." The problem is that not that much has been published on the Chronicles so one cannot refer only to published work. I guess that means that no literary interpretation of these works can be offered here, even one that would seem plausible to most readers? That means the page will have to remain quite minimal. User:jjdavenport99 —Preceding undated comment added 06:21, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. UtherSRG (talk) 20:47, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

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The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever → The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant – The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant is the correct title of the entire ten-novel series. The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, The Unbeliever refers only to the original trilogy. (In case anyone is wondering, the official name of the second trilogy is The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, while the last four books are referred to as The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant – neither have the Unbeliever part.) Flax5 (talk) 17:27, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

What makes this "high fantasy?"

There is a seperate wikipedia article for "high" fantasy and having read the books listed in this article, I disagree with that characterization for a big number of authors/stories. Thomas Covenant enters a different world only when his physical body experiences severe trauma - the same can be said of katherine kerr's deverry characters - which are also on wikipedia as high-fantasy even though they don't satisfy that definition. tracing the backlinks doesn't provide a good reason to categorize either in either direction, so what's up? I really loved raymond feist's magician duology too but it was never by any means characterized as "high fantasy" when pug or tomas entered the tsuranuanni. someone is trying to pull a fast one here. at least three articles do not belong under the same category as the lord of the rings and the chronicles of narnia.75.134.26.34 (talk) 06:48, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Would that be the chronicles of narnia in which 'real-world' fictional people end up in 'other-world' circumstances--regardless of the degree of ambiguity of the other world's "realness", mind you--without "experiencing severe trauma" to do so, as though that were a definitive discrepancy; or should The Horse and His Boy perhaps be classified separately because it involves nobody from 'the real world'? (hint: no.) 71.212.81.117 (talk) 02:40, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

A fantasy novel can be both a portal fantasy and a high fantasy at the same time. In a portal fantasy, a character is transported from the "real" world to a fantasy world, as in Narnia, the Wizard of Oz books, the Thomas Covenant series, and many many others. A common motif in a high fantasy is the hero has to fight a Big Bad with the fate of the fantasy world at stake, such as Sauron, the White Witch, the Wicked Witch of the East, and Lord Foul. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.142.138.58 (talk) 13:42, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

References

Synopsis? Basic details?

It would be enormously helpful if this article had some basic introductory material - a somewhat detailed plot synopsis of the entire series, perhaps a brief section about the writing and publication, etc? For someone who doesn't know anything about this series, this article offers almost no help, and the material the article does choose to cover is very poorly organized. 12.216.211.2 (talk) 20:55, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

More Criticisms

I've several criticisms for this. One MAJOR criticism is that it barely mentions Covenant's leprosy. This is a MAJOR motivation for his internal conflicts and ignoring it is unsupportable - risible actually. I think it also should be noted that while the date in the "real world" isn't clear, by the time Lord Foul's Bane was published in 1977, leprosy was, contrary to the narrative, curable. I think that should be mentioned, if for no other reason than the myth that it isn't still lingers. Second, I am going to change the (single!) mention of the rape, which claims the victim was a "young woman" to "a 15 year old girl". Clearly, the fact that it was not only an act of violent rape, but was of a (virgin) child is significant (in our cultural context). Third, the incessant questioning by Covenant of the "dream status" of his experiences in the Land is ridiculous. No dreams have logical continuity (over hours and days, weeks and months) in my experience, how about yours? He is clearly consciously experiencing a "reality" rather than a dream state in which the physics is amorphous. Fourth, the Land is NOT a "world". It is a region of what the characters call the "Earth". Fifth, the similarities between Donaldson's Land and Middle Earth approach plagiarism. Compare the Ramen with the Rohan, or the tentacled "lurker" in the swamp with the one in the pond/lake before the gates of Moria, the tree cities, and numerous other implausible "coincidences".71.30.36.178 (talk) 04:37, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Sources?

In several places there are calls for "sources". Aren't the sources for creatures and events in fiction novels, the novels themselves?

Since, for example, Donaldson invented "Cavewights" as creatures in these novels, and such creatures exist nowhere outside of these novels, what other "source" would you cite for the definition of what they are, than the novels themselves? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 00:43, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

I agree, the pedantic banner, "This section does not cite any sources. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (May 2009) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)", is unnecessary, the ten books about which the article is written are sufficient 'source' and asking for citations beyond the books is ridiculously pedantic. 93.155.220.206 (talk) 17:56, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

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Anyone familiar with this series care to add it to this list?

Types of mythological or fantastic beings in contemporary fiction is a page of, well, fantasy series (movie, TV, written, whatever) and the assorted mythological and/or fantastic critters they contain. This series would probably qualify. Anyone care to add it? Tamtrible (talk) 09:35, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Ahaa, interesting...ok I will give it a go. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:16, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Removed sections

I have removed both 'Arc of the Plot' and 'Symbolism and Motifs'. I get that these are pretty nifty topics to muse on, and the sections read like someone's high school lit project. That said, this is all uncited, and we cannot use the supposition of an editor making rather extraordinary claims without referenced support. We do not create; we collate. And paraphrase. The info must stay our until it is supported by numerous sources (to avoid giving undue weight to a single reference). Thoughts? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:25, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Worthwhile Critical Source?

The citation of this WA Senior volume seems dubious at best. Even with extensive searching, I could find little information on Senior outside of this volume and a single other journal published article.

Furthermore, reading the synopsis of the book from Kent State University Press, quotes such "as an extensive introduction to the fantasy genre in which W.A. Senior eloquently defends fantasy against charges of being mere escapism, or simply juvenile, and not warranting serious critical considerations," and "Donaldson has cerated an important contribution to the canon because of his serious intent and adult concerns, his powerful mythopoesis, and his manipulation of the conventions of epic fantasy," (Typo original to the synopsis), would suggest that the author was a Donaldson fan with a chip on his shoulder. The addition of "two illuminating interviews with Donaldson" in the appendix backs up this claim.

Remove it, nothing but in-group puffery. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.98.232.147 (talk) 18:09, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Critical response...

IDK how this might fit in, but the unsympathetic character thing is also true of Donaldon's other series, the Gap books. I don't recall a single character in them that was very likeable. 70.77.20.244 (talk) 01:00, 15 December 2022 (UTC)