Talk:Classic rock

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 February 2020 and 11 April 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Alex Steighner.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 17:46, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Mercury as exception

I deleted a claim that Freddie Mercury (along with Hendrix) was a counterexample to the "all-white" nature of Classic Rock radio format. Without getting into a discussion about the definition of "White", the point is moot to the case being made since the vast bulk of the audience (and programmers) have no inkling that Mercury is anything but British caucasian. Jgm 18:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Freddie's not Iranian! He's Indian! A Parsi, whose ancestors left Persia more than a MILLENIA ago! Come on, you people have bad nationality definitions.

"Race", ethnicity, and nationality are, of course, all different things. But I really don't know and don't care about the details of Mercury's heritage. If you take the time to carefully read what I wrote perhaps you'll see the point. Jgm 01:55, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

It does not matter what the vast majority of people see, the fact is that he is a singer of non-white/European heritage who has gained major international popularity. He was an Indian of Parsi background. The sentence above explains what they are and look at Parsi for details. They do look fairer skinned than other Indians due to their racial origins, which lie in the Middle East 1300 years ago, right after the Arab conquest of Persia. They have mixed with Indians though and are part of the Indian fabric. Regardless of India or the Middle East, they are non-white, and if you look at Freddie's childhood pictures, he looks very non-white. His own parents dont look white either. People dont know he's non-white because he never wanted to tell anyone of his South Asian background. He thought it would be detrimental to his popularity. He should be acknowledged as a significant non-white rock musician, though, nonetheless. Afghan Historian 06:25, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Again, though, I'm not concerned with "what" Freddie Mercury was or wasn't. I'm claiming that making the distinction here (rather than in, say, the Freddie Mercury or Queen articles) adds nothing to the reader's knowledge or understanding of the topic at hand. Jgm 11:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Are you morons seriously bickering about a man's race? Perhaps it's his sexuality? His dark hair?!? STFU! You morons are the exact problem with the world today! Can't you see that you put petty biases that are meaningless!!! I guarantee you, NO-ONE GIVES A FUCK ABOUT YOUR OPINIONS! STFU and get on with more important things! Mofo80503 (talk) 01:19, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Recent restructure

I just got ambitious and did a major overhaul of the article body to focus more clearly on the rock radio format that defined "classic rock". I plan to follow this with a culling of the list to reflect the article content. Comments welcomed. Jgm 03:09, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Revert

I reverted the link to a seperate page for Classic Rock as a genre. There is no reason for another article; if you are developing content about Classic Rock genre (please do) this is the place for it; the current article as it stands is a stub specifically created for that eventual content. The description of the radio format could logically go at the end of that article if there is some detail on the genre added. Jgm 15:47, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Good?

Is this good now?

I can't get the Table of Contents to appear. Its being stupid. Fizscy46

Reality Check

As I understand it, this article is about the the radio format called Classic Rock. I think the article should reflect the reality of what is played on these stations. I hear next to nothing from the 1950's on these stations. I also can't recall hearing Madonna or Cher on a classic rock station.

I'm going to leave the article as it is because I've already been reverted once, but I think that the article is inaccurate in several respects. ike9898 19:44, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

I'll second that. Classic rock is strictly rock no earlier than the 1960s. If a station is playing older music, it's not classic rock. It's a classic pop station, perhaps, but not rock. MagnoliaSouth ^(talk) 08:07, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

A minor point, but...

Aerosmith and Van Halen are not "80's bands". They're 70's bands. Yes, they played during the 80s, but so did the Beach Boys and the Grateful Dead; that doesn't make them 80's bands. It could be argued that Van Halen found their biggest fame during the 80s, but Aerosmith was VERY well established by the mid-70's. Kafziel

List of bands

I think the list of bands should just be removed altogether. The main article can describe bands considered classic rock, but having a list is just asking people to add unlikely acts like the Bee Gees and Marvin Gaye (mostly added by one user, but still). tregoweth 19:43, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

I would like to concur with Tregoweth. I've been loath to remove anything from the list on the chance that someone's classic rock station might play it ("Gypsies Tramps and Thieves" strikes me as being a (fairly slim) excuse for leaving Cher on the list for example), but having an exhaustive list of every band that could concievably be considered part of the Classic Rock genre is really overkill. I propose further discussion on the issue -- it seems to me some action should be taken, but whether it's a major pruning or a total excision I'm not sure. Haikupoet 20:25, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the list as it currently stands is useless in its inclusiveness. It would be nice to have a list, but I agree that leaving it off may be the only way to keep it under control (I've occasionally tilted at a similar windmill with respect to the list at Rock opera), so I understand the frustration. Jgm 20:57, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Delete is my vote. Recent addition: Carole King?! Seriously? Just shows how useless this list is. Jeff Worthington 19:04, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Rush is Canadian and AC/DC is Australian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.163.156 (talk) 22:02, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Cher, Marvin Gaye, and Lynda Rondstat are on the band list, and yet they are not even close to classic rock, and no classic rock radio station would ever think about playing them —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.25.251.108 (talk) 19:46, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, not with a straight face anyway. I'll 2nd that. MagnoliaSouth ^(talk) 08:10, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Fate of the band list

Well, it does seem that one particular user simply refuses to let go of the bloated version of the list. I'm almost inclined to put this up on Vandalism in Progress, but I don't know that this in fact qualifies as vandalism, much less that we have a consensus on what belongs in the list. My vote is to simply delete it, but failing that to restore a consensus-agreed trimmed version. If there are enough comments in favor I'll be happy to put it up on ViP, but I do feel like there needs to be a consensus for that sort of thing. Haikupoet 22:36, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I have, however, attached an NPOV tag to that section. Haikupoet 22:41, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

People, people, listen up. A lot of these bands were popular during a time period between the 70s-early 90s. That user who "refuses to let go of the bloated version of the list" is me, and you should not insult me. I visit websites for classic rock stations regularly, and see some of these "unlikely artists" on the playlist-like Metallica. So, let's not remove any more artists from the band list, but feel free to add more, and I will consider moving the artist list to a new page. CoolKatt number 99999 2:43 UTC, 17 August 2005

It's one thing to say that a band was popular during the 70s to 90s. It's quite another thing to claim that band as "classic rock" -- it may be one of those "I know them when I see them" kinds of things, but many of the bands you're insisting on keeping on there are not traditionally part of the classic rock corpus (some of them aren't even rock -- Marvin Gaye was one of the greatest things ever to come out of Motown, but he was R&B, not rock). Second, overt protectionism on a page is frowned upon, and I will be removing your warning notice as it isn't appropriate for Wikipedia unless the admins deem it to be the case -- that's what page protection is for, and I hope we can agree that such a thing is not necessary in this case. Yet. Haikupoet 02:54, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I think the list should go - it's inherently POV, since the term is so loose and subjective. For me, nothing past about 1982 is likely to count, others are sure to disagree. Beside, if 65.43 is really serious about making a contribution to wikipedia, he should create himself a user name - for me and many others, bare IP addresses carry far less weight in debates than signed-up users and rightly so - if you're not committed enough to spend the 30 seconds required, why should we take any notice of your opinion? Graham 04:05, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

We seem to be developing a consensus that the list is POV, and yet one user has removed the NPOV tag. Could someone please restore it? I don't want to start a unilateral edit war. Haikupoet 04:25, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

It's one thing to say that a band was popular during the 70s to 90s. It's quite another thing to claim that band as "classic rock" Yeah, right. They are pretty much the same thing, so just leave all artists that are on the list there, and end this discussion. Again, don't remove any artists from the list, but you can add artists if you want. Just remember, most grunge bands don't exist anymore, and can be considered classic rock. Let's all agree on one thing-the classic rock corpus will always expand.CoolKatt number 99999 04:36, 17 August 2005

I don't know if I will actually create a user name, BTW. And Graham, "create" is not spelled right. CoolKatt number 99999 04:46, 17 August 2005

I've made up my mind. I will create a user name CoolKatt number 99999 04:48, 17 August 2005

Good. Welcome aboard! By the way carping about typos is not usually a way to win friends here.Graham 04:51, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry about that, and I added the page to my watchlist CoolKatt number 99999 04:59, 17 August 2005

The list of bands will also be part of my Profile until further notice, as in I copied it. CoolKatt number 99999 05:54, 17 August 2005

I had login problems, so I created a new user name, just added an extra 9 CoolKatt number 99999

Ah. Now things begin to get clearer -- CoolKatt: I think you are mis-interpreting the article as it stands. The article addresses Classic Rock primarily as a Radio Format rather than as a genre or concept. You seem to think that rock acts/songs can become small-c "classic" in the way that a car can, just by sticking around for a certain number of years. That may be true, but it's not what the article is about. Perhaps the header for the list needs to be more explicit about what the list is: core artists for the Classic Rock radio format. Clearly many of the bands you seem intent on keeping on the list do not fit this definition. So, we have to decide: edit the list, or change the article to incorporate a broader definition of "classic rock artists". I submit that doing the latter would result in an essentially useless list of *every* rock band more than X years old (where X is TBD). What do you think? Jgm 20:49, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Classic rock can also apply to any rock song as young as 10-11 years old. Just added this to the article before I logged in. CoolKatt number 99999

Edit-This includes most grunge music and other early alternative music, plus hair metal bands, 70s-80s punk and metal, and everything between The Beatles era and 1979. Put this in as a new section-defining "classic rock" CoolKatt number 99999 01:44, 18 August 2005

The problem here is that you want classic rock to be anything you say it is. Only Humpty Dumpty gets to make up words as he goes along, and his best skill is falling off of walls. What I'm getting at is that the consensus definition is not as broad-based as you want to say it is. Haikupoet 02:13, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Many classic rock streaming radio stations now have segments devoted to punk rock, 80's hair bands and 90's grunge. This should help a bit, plus I added more to "defining classic rock". CoolKatt number 99999 02:53, 18 August 2005

So, shall we delete the band list? tregoweth 15:41, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

• Upon re-reading the article, I think the "Key artists and albums" sections summarizes things well enough that the list of bands is unnecessary. tregoweth 22:40, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

It's OK, I have my own band list in my user profile, why don't you do it too? That way, we can all have a list of bands we consider classic rock. CoolKatt number 99999

There is no point to that. If you want it, well, it's your user page. But I don't think there's any real need for a list on the article. Haikupoet 05:39, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

definition/years

Sorry, CK, but you are going to have to come up with some external citation(s) for your "definition" for it to stand. Jgm 13:29, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Um, like what? CoolKatt number 99999

Whaddaya got? Jgm 02:13, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm back, and better than ever. So here's an idea-why don't we put a list of bands we consider classic rock in our user pages, like I did? CoolKatt number 99999

CoolKatt number 99999 - despite several requests you keep re-defining "classic rock" and the "classic rock era" to your personal taste. Can you, for example, come up with an example of a self-described "classic rock" radio station that has Elvis songs (or any song from the '50s) on its playlist? Please discuss here and establish a consensus before making these changes again. Jgm 13:48, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Second request. If you change it again without discussing I will report you as a vandal. Jgm 02:47, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Oh, fine, It's not like anyone here dislike rock music, just do what I say and put a list of performers we consider classic rock in our user profile, maybe as a subpage. And, unless you do report me, refrain from name-calling please, I'm not a University of Idaho student CoolKatt number 99999

Sorry, I was being sarcastic CoolKatt number 99999

What precisely are you trying to get across here? I'm going to second Tregoweth's removal of the list entirely, as it was unwieldy and redundant, but while you can have a bit of sloshover into the 80s and 90s there are some stylistic issues that are really not negotiable. It is true that classic rock stations sometimes play a bit of hair metal, but I've never heard anything more extreme than Def Leppard on the stations I've listened to -- certainly no Dio, or Poison, or the like (I'll grudgingly give you Metallica if you want, but they're not really hair metal anyway). I think the reader is probably best served with a description of the core artists of Classic Rock -- an exhaustive list is really unnecessary, not to mention POV and page clutter. (Come to think of it, the radio station list is getting a little long too -- time to trim anything that isn't in a major market, I think.) Haikupoet 05:31, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Dio isn't hair metal, their lots of types of metal, but certainly not hair metal. BlackSabbath1996 (talk) 21:48, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

A small rant

I respectfully suggest that whoever's adding A Flock of Seagulls and Animotion is on crack. tregoweth 05:25, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

I added AFOS, but I'm not on crack, as I am anti-drug (this is a message to all drugs-F.U. drugs!) CoolKatt number 99999

One more thing: While we're trying to reach a consensus, I will continue to maintain my list of classic rock bands in my user profile, I suggest that all of you have a list of bands you consider classic rock in your user profile as well, as I am done editing the main page for now, however I will continue to take part in discussions. CoolKatt number 99999

I didn't mean you were literally on crack, just that your choices seemed dubious. In any event, how does an 80s synth-pop band qualify as "classic rock"? tregoweth 18:18, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

Well, OK CoolKatt number 99999

What's this about?

"Classic rock radio artists are nearly exclusively white and male; little of the funk, disco or soul music styles that co-existed with rock music in the original era, and that may have been played contemporaneously on AOR predecessors, survives in the classic rock format."

Rock radio also does not play Country music which is also predominantly white and male, while they do play Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin. Further R&B stations do not play Aerosmith as a general rule. This statement seems absurd!

I was wondering about the "nearly exclusively... male" part. You mention Janis Joplin. Other women on classic rock stations include, Debbie Harry (as lead singer of mostly-male Blondie, but she was the voice of the group), Joan Jett, Heart... OK there are not a tremendous number but I think those alone make "nearly exclusively" inaccurate. There are others. A few Jefferson Airplane/Starship songs with Grace Slick as lead singer. Oh! The Pretenders! Again not a female solo but a female lead singer. It think a Sheryl Crow song or two may even have made its way into the classic rock playlists. Nearly exclusively male? Nope! Zeutron 23:37, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

OK, I convinced myself. I have now edited out the reference to "male" and have included Jimi Hendrix as the exception to the almost-all-white comment. It now reads: "Classic rock radio artists are nearly exclusively white, Jimi Hendrix being almost the only exception;..." By the way, I think the link to the article on "Whites" is kind of silly in this context, but I left it in. Zeutron 01:14, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

I would almost be inclined to suggest ditching the line altogether except for one point: it's fundamentally true. Female rock stars of the classic rock genre are the exception rather than the rule -- Heart and Janis Joplin are the only major ones apart from those you mention above that I can think of off the top of my head (Bonnie Raitt and Tina Turner could apply, but they aren't generally played on classic rock stations). It is true that you have proportionally more significant female rock stars in modern rock -- Melissa Etheridge, Shirley Manson, arguably Alanis Morissette come to mind -- but they came along largely too late to be included in the classic rock "canon", such as it is. What it comes down to is that classic rock is inarguably overwhelmingly white and male.

Ideally I'd ditch the sentence entirely anyway, as I'm not entirely certain what the relevance of the fact is in an NPOV encyclopedia (a feminist critic of rock music might wish to comment on it though). For whatever it's worth, considering the 70s as the heart of the classic rock era, the women doing ground-breaking musical work in those days seemed to be people like Donna Summer and Vicki Sue Robinson who focused on disco. Women in rock, for whatever reason, are a distinct minority, and only really came to prominence with the rise of alternative rock in the early 90s, and in some genres of rock such as metal female-fronted groups are at best a novelty. Not to say that women can't rock, mind you, but by and large they didn't, back in the day. Haikupoet 04:30, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Hm. I should qualify that last bit there -- there are women of considerable influence in the music world (of which I would probably put Tori Amos and Sarah McLachlan at the forefront, maybe Missy Elliot as well), but they aren't necessarily rockers even now. Haikupoet 04:33, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Based on the discussion above, I've restored the mention of CR artists being "predominantly" (rather than the prior "almost exclusively") male. As to the question of why it is relevant: the establishment of the AOR, and by extension, Classic Rock radio formats, had a distinct racial undertow, as the disco movement and anti-disco backlash of the late '70s led to a split among radio audiences that hadn't existed before. More than any other entertainment form, Classic Rock radio's content reflects its target audience: white males, and this seems a fact worth noting. Jgm 18:02, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Update: In the nine years since Haikupoet's comment, female-fronted bands in metal have grown so numerous and prominent (I'd even say they have exploded in numbers and prominence) that I don't think you can call them "at best a novelty" anymore. Metal is still predominantly male and white, no doubt, but the times, they are a-changing, and the scene is becoming more diverse, slowly but steadily. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:56, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Breaking out the station list

I decided to try something different from what I suggested above -- I broke out the station list into a separate article, to which I encourage people to add on-air nicknames for the stations. The list is organized geographically and is basically a cut-and-paste from this article. Follow the new link to see the list. (I'm not condoning adding a list of artists in the same manner though -- too POV.) Haikupoet 17:27, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Classic rock forum

Would anyone object to me adding a section on the content page called 'External Links'? I have a classic rock discussion forum website and I thought people seeking information about classic rock might be interested. I would like to add a link to it under this new section.

AC/DC

From this page

British hard rock and progressive rock bands make up a central pillar of classic rock artists; significant among these are Led Zeppelin, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Who, The Kinks, Pink Floyd, AC/DC, The Moody Blues, Yes, Rush, and Queen. Many different songs from these acts are likely to appear on the playlists of classic rock stations.

From the AC/DC page

AC/DC is an Australian hard rock band.

I noticed that too as I was reading. I've removed them from that list, but next time be bold and change it yourself. Also, please sign your comment using four tildes (~~~~) so people know who you are. -Greg Asche (talk) 17:58, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

But, AC/DC should be listed somewhere, even if not British -- they are a pillar of classic rock. 69.138.148.185 (talk) 17:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree but AC/DC but the absence of Pink Floyd is quite surprising, they also made an indelible mark on classic rock. MagnoliaSouth ^(talk) 08:15, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Also, Rush? Hint: They're Canadian. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:10, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

"Blues Influence" etc.

This new section is not bad, but we now have TWO different sections telling us that almost all "Classic Rock" artists are white. Do we really need two? I am thinking now of taking out that whole sentence earlier in the article about classic rock being almost all-white, as this section says the same thing but puts it in context. I think the list of disco, funk etc. does not need to be restored anywhere, as all it really says is that people who listen to classic rock stations only like to listen to certain kinds of music! The same could be said of any other kind of music station including disco, funk, etc. Why don't those stations play classic rock? Because the people who listen to them don't want to hear it! Same is true here. As for singer-songwriter, that has always struck me as a bogus category anyway, and besides, there certainly are singer-songwriters whose music is played on classic rock stations: Springsteen, Dylan, Crosby, Stills, Nash, Young, all come immediately to mind. In fact, CSNY is a sub-genre of music that is often heard on classic rock stations (the ones I listen to, at least), but I am not sure that this article reflects that. Zeutron 01:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I deleted the whole section which was somewhat rambling and only marginally related to the subject. I suggest the editor consider whether any of that information might be useful to the rock music article. Jgm 02:18, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

For the reasons I stated above, I strongly disagree with this deletion. If classic rock is considered by some to be a genre unto itself, as stated near the beginning of the article, then a statement about its origins is more than "marginally" related to the subject. The "blues" also are related to "rock music," because "classic rock" is a subset of "rock." As for "somewhat rambling," I thought the proper response to that is editing to make the passage less rambling, not outright deletion. And I think the section in question was rather brief to be called "rambling" anyway. It could be tightened, but so can a lot of sections in a lot of articles that have not been deleted.

If anything should be deleted, it is that sentence higher in the article about the almost complete lack of African American artists in "classic rock." At least the writer of the "Blues" section gave some context to that and noted the irony between the African American influences on "classic rock" and almost complete lack of African American artists on the "classic rock" playlists. I am seriously considering replacing that whole sentence with one that deals only with the "predominantly male" issue but notes some of the exceptions, such as Joan Jett, Pat Benatar, Chrissie Hynde, Debbie Harry, Grace Slick, etc. But first I would like to know what other people think about this. Zeutron 19:50, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Origins

There has been a back-and-forth about who "invented" the format, on what station it first appeared, etc. In the absence of any references or documentation, I've just deleted the paragraph altogether. I'd suggest discussing here (with citations in hand) before re-adding this. Jgm 12:39, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

The Beatles

The article says this:

Artists whose musical output spanned the 1960s and 1970s, including The Beatles and The Rolling Stones form something of a special case: a few later songs from these acts (such as "Revolution" and "Come Together" by The Beatles and "Start Me Up" by the Stones) are staples of classic rock radio, while the older songs from these groups are seldom heard on the format, gravitating instead to oldies radio, along with nearly any other material recorded prior to around 1967.

Ignoring the part about the Stones, is the part about the Beatles really accurate? While "classic rock" stations certainly limit their selections to the "later" Beatles (probably starting with Strawberry Fields, early 1967), more than a "few" Beatles songs are heard on these stations. About half the songs on Sgt. Pepper itself, a few from MMT (I am the Walrus, for one), probably a few from the White Album, Hey Jude... I could go on. What it should probably say is something like "A variety of the Beatles' later songs (about 1967 through 1970) are staples of classic rock radio." I am not sure how to get the Stones back into the sentence. They are a different situation anyway, since their career (as known in the U.S.) is 40+ years, not six. Zeutron 07:23, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Progressive rock radio

The progressive rock (radio format) was missing from the Origins section; it was a partial predecessor to album oriented rock (much of what is heard now on classic rock was first heard on progressive), and deserves to be mentioned. I've worked it in. Wasted Time R 21:05, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Fleetwood Mac, oldies?

Mentioning Fleetwood Mac as a band whose earlier material is generally considered oldies is a little off-- their first studio album was recorded in 1968 (after the 1967-ish cutoff listed in that section), and their breakthrough material didn't even come until the mid to late 1970s (Fleetwood Mac in '75 and Rumours in '77). Even the Rolling Stones is a dubious example, as every Classic Rock station I've ever heard plays early Stones. The Beatles is probably the best example here; oldies stations love Meet the Beatles through Rubber Soul/Revolver, and Classic Rock stations pretty much cover Sgt. Pepper's on. Triphook 06:45, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Relation and influence vs. Classical Music

I will be thinking of writing some articles about this subject. --Music Master 21:50, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Radio Format?

Rock is a genre of music, classic rock is a subgenre of rock that ecompases 30 years of rock, give or take ten years. I get what this article says about classic rock starting out as something to do with the radio but I don't know if the entire article should be based around that. MaulYoda 01:43, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

It is a format, not a genre. It's just rock and roll from the late sixties to the eighties, and while most of them are in the same or similar genres, classic rock itself is more a period of time of rock and roll. Cheezer Rox (talk) 20:16, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I totally agree! It's a period of time starting in the late 60's to the late 80's and any other definition would be incorrect. Plenty of sources that could be used to support this.

Blues Rock and Hard Rock continued after it wasn't Classic Rock anymore. Classic Rock was an era rooted in the 70's that also includes the 60's and 80's with hard blues and hard rock, NOT "Dad Rock"! Dad Rock is some slang term that was coined, I suppose, after Dad's taste for real rock was to include some more tame music, but not anything other than Pop Rock!

Just one more thing. I wish people would stop quoting books or articles that were written by enthusiasts, not experts. Too much of the foot notes are written by people with an opinion, but not a legitimate expert. Classic Rock is different to everyone, but a critic, or enthusiast doesn't have no say.

How about quoting record execs, producers, writers. Novel plan! Right?

I think I'll write a book about Classic Rock lol, and state that I'm an expert, correct all the idiots out there that don't understand the topic but are famously selected to write for Wikipedia. Let's set the record straight! Note48 (talk) 22:40, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Artists addition

I added whom I thought were relevant new additions to classic rock playlists around the country and outside of it. I specifically mention that they are controversial in their inclusion but they exist nonetheless. I hope you find this to be a welcome paragraph to the article. After my "blues influence" section was torn down I hope this section doesn't receive the same fate. Universalguru 3:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Regional Differences

What do you all think about implementing a section on regional differences in classic rock. For example The Tragically Hip are a main staple in Canada, whereas they see no air time in the US. Free is played far more often in Britain than the US as well. This is just an idea.

Steppenwolf and Kiss

The statement that you will only hear one song from each of these artists is patently false. "Magic Carpet Ride" is quite popular, as are "Strutter," "Beth," "Detroit Rock City," "Love Gun," "God Gave Rock and Roll to You II," and "Lick it Up." While Kiss and Steppenwolf certainly have many more songs than are commonly heard on classic rock radio, the same is true for every band. Better examples might be Thin Lizzy (although I've heard "Jailbreak" and "Cowboy Song" on the radio) or the Outfield.

The Key Artist Section

This section should just be removed, it's just becoming a poorly written massive list of orginal research. Ridernyc (talk) 21:16, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I have also added citation tags, and removed the Symphonic classic rock section. Ridernyc (talk) 21:22, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I think that the phrase "such as" insinuates a short list, not a massive list of everyone's favorite artists. 66.224.201.50 (talk) 19:55, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Rock

Many stations are just calling it "rock" now. Sirius refers to its Classic Rock stations as Early Rock and Late Rock. Music Choice describes its classic rock station as "Witness the true pioneers of rock and the classic hits that provided the foundation of rock 'n' roll". On the AccuRadio Classic Rock station, their station ID goes "The history of rock music".

76.126.15.78 (talk) 15:57, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Clean-up

I made some important edits to this this article recently. I moved Bruce Springsteen to the solo artists, since he's more famous for his solo work than he is for his recent work with the E Street Band. I also added Cream and Jethro Tull into the British hard and progressive rock artists, since those artists seem rather prominent in the radio format. In addition, the Beatles and the Kinks may be neither hard rock nor prog, but they are true key artists in the classic rock format (I put them in a separate sentence). Finally, I just had to add mention about Stairway To Heaven and the Led Zep song's significance in the radio format's history. 97.97.174.186 (talk) 17:44, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Not a genre.

I've seen some songs (like many Grateful Dead ones and "Shooting Star" by Bad Company to name a few) and I believe even some records and bands have been labeled as "Classic Rock" in the genre box. I don't think this is accurate, as Classic Rock is really just a time period of rock and roll from the late sixties to the mid-eighties where Hard Rock, Blues-Rock, Psychedelic Rock, and others were dominant. But that's just it, it's made up of many different genres, just from the same time period.

So, basically, I guess I'm just saying that this should not be labeled as a genre for anything. Cheezer Rox (talk) 20:22, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

A bit late on this but I think it is both a genre and a format(a failing one at that NYC just lost its only Classic Rock Station). Heavy Metal, Progressive Rock, Psychedelic rock are arguably sub genres of Classic Rock. I have heard kids refer to Led Zep, and the Clash as Classic Rock. As a 51 year old this seems strange to me as I remember when The Clash were the rebels standing against everything Led Zep stood for. But thinking about it I can see how to an 18 year old Britney Spears fan or a 21 year old Slipknot freak Classic Rock groups sound much more alike alike then different. Edkollin (talk) 08:07, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Key artist section redux

Okay, I am as guilty as anyone for the way this section evolved, but it's clearly time for it to go. I've removed all mentions of specific bands and songs (as well as the tags). Yes, all artists mentioned are played on classic rock stations somewhere; but without some valid citation none of them in particular can be claimed to be "key". I also removed some uncited history that seems to keep coming back; again without some references this could easily be vanity or simply wrong. Jgm (talk) 21:50, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Great. Now if you could just "de-example-farm" every other music style or radio format article Wiki would be vastly improved :-). Editors just loving seeing how many places they can add their pov favourites though... so it's a never ending battle. The Real Libs-speak politely 22:12, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

PS.. my edit didn't restore anything... just reverted to a previous version. The Real Libs-speak politely 22:21, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Just "rock"

AccuRadio describes their Classic Rocktopia station, which is a classic rock station, as "the history of rock music". Music Choice describes their classic rock station as "Witness a tribute to the original architects of rock and the classic hits that defined the foundation of rock and roll."

Considering these descriptions, can it be determined that they are merely calling classic rock "rock" now? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Retromaniac (talk • contribs) 20:15, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I would say no. The Classic Rock sound represents rock music or music that sounds like rock music that originated in the 1960's and 1970's. Classic Rock is generally more bombasitic and Alternative is generally more lo fi. But you are right in the sense that Classic Rock radio stations play Nirvana and Pearl Jam. It is a muddled mess. As of now the article is based on the format "Classic Rock" and it is a notable format. Edkollin (talk) 16:12, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Classic rock stations are not "just rock" -- thought those exist. Most classic rock stations don't play grunge rock (which is a form of rock). The station I'm most familiar with (WIMZ), for example, plays hard rock from the very late '60' right up to the beginning of the '90's, but almost nothing post-Nirvana and absolutely nothing with an obvious grunge influence. They also don't play punk rock, even very early punk, as it is seen as a "classic" style. Stations exist that play 60's to now, 80's' to now, and so on, but those don't use the term classic rock. (Though, its is interesting, that Pandora Music can't tell the difference, even when I personally hear a stylistic difference.) 69.138.148.185 (talk) 17:21, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't know how to add y comment properly, but please keep this in mind for removing references to Nirvana from that FiveThirtyEight article written. 1) yes, they prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that self-labeled classic rock stations also play Nirvana 2) they don't attempt to define what musically makes up classic rock 3) they don't consider that different types of rock have taste overlaps 4) the article mentions they only play Nirvana's "big songs". in other words, they wouldn't play just any Nirvana song because it doesn't fit within their genre and their audience wouldn't want just regular grunge rock. classic rock listeners can listen to popular songs from other rock genres, but that doesn't make popular songs from other rock genres classic rock. 2405:9800:B970:6AD:9174:4AEE:833C:C828 (talk) 04:37, 27 September 2023 (UTC)Redgren2405:9800:B970:6AD:9174:4AEE:833C:C828 (talk) 04:37, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Radio format only?

Can someone please provide any sort of source that backs up the claim that classic rock is only a radio format? By the logic of many of the arguments against it as a genre, rock encompasses anything that uses a guitar, whether it be punk, folk, rock and roll, grunge, alternative, heavy, soft, quick or slow. Classic rock is a period of music, or a period in the development of rock music that is classically defined as being from 1964 (British invasion ) to 1980 (Death of John Bonham/John Lennon) or 1985, but includes or excludes many of the transitional bands at either end of the spectrum (For example, New Wave group The Police is classic rock, but Blondie is not). To outright deny this as a genre or defined range of music history is to label music as you see fit to label it. -- ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 03:28, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I could see where someone could have a personal opinion that the term could refer to an "era." Not sure where any valid sources would be to show the beginnings/ends of this era. My region has more "Classic rock" stations you can be counted. All of them have the exact same format of Classic rock. And all play music from the mid 60s up to modern day 2000s. Which contradicts the year-to-year example given above. It is certainly not a genre. It is an umbrella radio-term used to encompass a whole slew of rock genres. It should never be used as a genre in any Wikipedia music article. GripTheHusk (talk) 03:50, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Not a genre according to who? Using the playlist of a radio station that describes themselves as classic rock is far from reliable. Dates alone are not accurate simply because many bands formed between those dates continue to release material under their original name (Or in some cases under a new name, ie Heaven and Hell), or as solo artists.

Alternative Rock exists as a genre, despite the fact that it is merely a collection of styles into a broader category. What seperates them on the basic level? -- ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 04:06, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Like the British Invasion which also started out as something else(a phenomenon) Classic Rock is now a genre. Classic Rock is now used regularly by reliable sources and elsewhere to describe a sound. Edkollin (talk) 22:35, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Do not add a band list to this article.

Unless you are prepared to reference every entry and constantly patrol it do not do it. See previous discussions above. Artist lists have been removed by consensus more then once. Ridernyc (talk) 19:19, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Lead sentence

I understand that the article is within the scope of the radio discussion, but I feel that since it's the only Wikipedia article titled "classic rock" and there is no disambig page present, the lead sentence should include a definition of the time period/genre/whatever you want to call it. To my knowledge (and this may be ridiculously POV, so apologies if it is), the term "classic rock" does indeed encompass a certain style of music and a radio format is not the first thing that comes to mind when the term is heard. Therefore, until a page is created for the genre itself rather than simply the radio format, I think the lead sentence should be a description of the primary definition of the term and have changed it thus. I have left the rest of the article as is. Unvanquished (talk) 18:50, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that is ridiculously POV to assume what readers are thinking. If there are two subjects with similar names and no disambiguation page exists, the solution is to create a disambiguation page, not conflagrate two subjects in one article in a way that will only confuse and mislead the reader. The subject of this article is a radio format, not a music genre. Any content about a supposed music genre called "classic rock" belongs in it's own article, if warranted, or a related music genre article such as rock music. Piriczki (talk) 14:14, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay, fair enough. I just found it odd that other genres such as alternative rock, punk rock, glam rock, etc had their own pages but not classic rock. Thanks for the help and I guess I'll attempt to work on a classic rock genre page instead. Unvanquished (talk) 05:21, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Image

Can an image be added to represent Classic Rock? Facebook is linked with and uses Wikipedia, and when there's no image a generic one is used that is unrelated to music. The top-of-the-page image is automatically added to Facebook as a thumbnail/icon. An image at Wikimedia Commons would probably work. I put on a Led Zeppelin stage shot, but now it's gone. I thought because you couldn't really see who was in the photo, it worked as a generic classic rock image. Even just a shot of some rock instruments or a studio control room could work. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Super_Humbucker_V-2_pickup_on_an_Ibanez_Studio_electric_guitar.jpg J-klem (talk) 05:42, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, the consensus for this page is that it's not about classic rock as a genre, but instead about classic rock as a radio format. Band lists of artists understood to have fallen into the "classic rock" genre have been created and sabotaged in the past and eventually the list itself was taken down, so I think a picture depicting such an example would be counterintuitive. Unvanquished (talk) 00:07, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Understood. How about something like this: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ClassicRock.jpg (could be displayed smaller) J-klem (talk) 13:38, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:26, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Classic rock → Classic Rock (radio format) – The title of the article is ambiguous as it could refer to a radio format or a music genre and there is a history of conflicting contributions from users who are writing about two different subjects. As is the article conflagrates the two subjects. Alternately, this article could remain and a some content moved to a new article titled Classic Rock (radio format). Piriczki (talk) 17:56, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support there should be a disambiguation page at "classic rock". 65.94.45.160 (talk) 03:27, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose; "classic rock" isn't a genre, unless you define it as "the type of music classic rock stations play". Powers ^T 11:54, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

• Comment I agree that "classic rock" isn't a genre, in which case simply renaming this article would suffice. Even without a disambiguation page, the title Classic rock (radio format) will spare readers and editors a lot of confusion. Piriczki (talk) 12:52, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
  • I also oppose unnecessary disambiguation. Powers ^T 15:12, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. The merits of the nomination are irrelevant at the moment. There is no other article to disambiguate this one from. —  AjaxSmack  16:50, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

97.9 The Loop

On Savetheloop.com, the video claims that the classic rock station 97.9 the Loop in Chicago opened its doors in 1979, two years before the "earliest" classic rock radio station on the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.78.58.45 (talk) 15:09, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Can you give any other sources? Pianostar9 (talk) 14:37, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Radio Format Origin

Whatever our discussion of the definition of Classic Rock music, the first radio station to use that term to describe it's "album rock oldie" format was KRBE, Houston, as described. This has been documented in articles in the industry trade magazine Radio & Records, and two of the articles are listed as references. Many, many stations played "classic rock" before KRBE, but not one called it Classic Rock before KRBE, which even had the federal service mark for that phrase before abandoning it and allowing it to go generic. The general public didn't use the term Classic Rock to describe old album rock until the spread of the radio format. People claiming this or that station played "old album rock" earlier are correct, but those stations were traditional rock stations which also played current (new) music. The most recent edit by Piriczki claims that WYSP discussed using the phrase in planning sessions, along with "timeless" and "vintage." Piriczki admits, however, WYSP did not use the term Classic Rock--whatever their off-air discussions, until the mid 80s when it had become the accepted format name. KRBE was the first pure Classic Rock station, period. Can we at least agree on that? ```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by Electriclarry (talk • contribs) 00:38, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Your edit was undone because it removed referenced content without explanation in the form of an edit summary. Not only would an edit summary have been helpful, such wholesale changes to an article should be discussed on the talk page prior to editing the article. Your statements above that I claimed or admitted to anything are completely false. I did not contribute any of the content regarding WYSP, it simply went back into the article with the rest of the content you deleted when your edit was undone. In fact, I had previously added a "citation needed" tag to the WYSP section with the idea that the entire paragraph would be removed after a reasonable period of time if no sources were found. Your edit also appears to have left behind an orphaned reference ("Overview 1986" Billboard December 27, 1986: Y4), where a citation remains but the content which it supported has been removed. This is misleading to the reader as it makes it appear that the new content is supported by that source when, in fact, it is not. Piriczki (talk) 11:37, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Fine, let's talk. First, you are much more experienced at working with Wikipedia than I, but I don't see what referenced content I deleted. The paragraph you refer to has no citations whatever, and is someone's opinion. The previous history section is thoroughly referenced. The reference ("Overview 1986" Billboard December 27, 1986: Y4) is not orphaned. However, reverting to the WYSP paragraph has orphaned several references. Do you mind if I repair it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Electriclarry (talk • contribs) 17:04, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

With [this edit] you removed the sentence

The classic rock format evolved from AOR radio stations that were attempting to appeal to an older audience by including familiar songs of the past with current hits.

and its accompanying reference (Hill, Douglas. "AOR Nears Crucial Crossroads: Demographics, Ad Pressures My Force Fragmentation" Billboard May 22, 1982: 1) and the sentence

In 1982, radio consultant Lee Abrams developed the Timeless Rock format which combined contemporary AOR with hits from the 1960s and 1970s.

and its reference ("Timeless Rock FM Format Is Taking Shape", Billboard November 6, 1982: 1). That edit also removed the sentence

By 1986, the success of the format resulted in oldies accounting for 60–80% of the music played on album rock stations.

but left behind the reference ("Overview 1986" Billboard December 27, 1986: Y4). The reference now follows a different sentence which it does not support. The original reference should be removed if the content it supported has been removed. Also, somewhere along the line a "citaion needed" tag was removed from the WYSP section and an "unreliable source" tag was removed from the classicrockersnetwork reference. FYI, the USPTO record for the service mark you referred to indicates it was for a design which included the words "classic rock," not the term "classic rock" itself and that its first use was August 21, 1984. Piriczki (talk) 19:37, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

There are a number of articles on the Classic Rock radio format archived here that may be useful: http://historyofclassicrockradio.com/category/articles/ SethResler (talk) 15:43, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

The last classic rock song?

It's understood that most classic rock stations' playlists end when grunge started, but does anyone know what the last rock song to make these playlists is? And if it's consistent across many playlists, it might be worth adding to the article. I seem to remember that K-Rock in NY had Losing My Religion (1991) in their normal rotation. And if not that, are there other contenders? Simon12 (talk) 06:29, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, K-Rock in NY has Vertigo by U2 from 2004 on their top 1043 list, so I guess it's a moving target. (Lot's of Pearl Jam and Nirvana also). Love to find a playlist or top 1000 from 1995-2000 that shows the real final Classic Rock song from the pre-grunge era. Someone else suggested Enter Sandman by Metallica, released July 1991, 5 months after Losing My Religion. Simon12 (talk) 04:06, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

KRBE?

Article states that the Houston station KRBE was the first to bill itself as a 'classic rock' station. I'm wondering if that distinction doesn't belong to KLOL (101) instead. I grew up in Houston and at least since the early 80's, KRBE (104) was a Top 40 station, and KLOL was the classic rock station. The Wikipedia article for KRBE doesn't mention anything about it being classic rock, even as far back as the 70's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.183.120.117 (talk) 21:03, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

It was KRBE-AM 1070, the link goes to the wrong article (KRBE-FM 104) which probably caused the confusion. Piriczki (talk) 16:09, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

US-Centric definition

In the UK the term 'Classic Rock' is not a radio format. The UK does not have a history of 20th century radio stations dedicated purely to 'classic' rock'. I exclude later examples such as Kerrang! Radio andthe Scuzz tv channel because their format is a wider variety of music genres such as indie, punk, metalcore etc. Here in the UK in 2013 the phrase 'classic rock' has evolved to refer to a type or genre of music.

Historically in the UK the phrase used was simply 'rock', as in 'The Friday Rock Show (BBC, Tommy Vance, launcheed circa 1978 and broadcast for 2 hours a week)'. Nowadays the terms 'classic rock' and 'hard rock' have become fairly synonymous in the UK. For example we have Classic Rock Magazine which routinely features lots of new bands / new music which falls within the genre of 'classic rock'.

What we don't have in the UK is a history of the term 'classic rock' being used to describe purely a radio station format. In fact I don't see many citations on this page linking to UK sources, only US, which is why I suggest this article appears to be narrowly written to match a US definition only.

I was tempted to draft a UK section and suggest adding to the page, but am reluctant to do so after having read in this talk section the number of failed suggestions to include 'Classic Rock as a genre' on Wikipedia over the last decade.

I do not have a wiki account, but I will identify myself as music reviewer Paul Jack. I'll type the tilde thing now. 81.178.140.140 (talk) 08:11, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

That's a different topic and belongs in its own article, see WP:DISAMBIG and WP:TOPIC. Piriczki (talk) 14:49, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree, there is something to fix here - two different topics with the same name. However I can see from the talk history above that past suggestions to address the issue failed - Paul Jack. 81.178.141.163 (talk) 16:00, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

"Dad rock"

Re an unexplained reversion by another user: [1]. If you refuse to allow this statement here, then you must remove the REDIRECT from "Dad rock" to "Classic rock". The term must be mentioned in the article, or else there's no point having a redirect. It is unhelpful. 31.50.70.172 (talk) 00:44, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Feel free to prod the Dad rock redirect for deletion.--SabreBD (talk) 10:24, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

If that statement could be solidly cited ti would be an excellent inclusion, in my opinion. Huw Powell (talk) 16:09, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

This is a pejorative term applied to music or artists from the 1970s or current artists that adopt earlier styles, it is not about the radio format. Piriczki (talk) 16:29, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

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Recent edits by user:Redideo

Recently, user Redideo has repeatedly added unsourced, inaccurate content which doesn't directly relate to the subject of this article. An external link was also added in violation of WP:SPAM. The questionable content reads as follows:

As of 2015, an example of the classic rock radio format includes San Diego, California's KGB-FM. In the 1980's, it was a ground breaking station due to the leadership of Ron Jacobs and General Manager Sonny Jim Price. The KGB Chicken (later known as the San Diego Chicken), The Homegrown Albums, and Sky Show are just a few of the innovative ideas that were created by KGB-FM due to the influence of the classic rock format.

First, there are hundreds of classic rock stations as of 2015 and there doesn't appear to be anything particularly noteworthy about this one as it pertains to the classic rock format. Jacobs left KGB in 1975 and Price about 1983, long before the station became classic rock. Homegrown Albums, the Chicken and Sky Show started in 1973, 1974 and 1976 respectively, not in the 1980s. That these promotions from the 1970s could have been created "due to the influence of the classic rock format" which developed in the 1980s makes no sense.

This content could possibly be added to the album-oriented rock article under Programming but it isn't relevant to this article. Piriczki (talk) 20:19, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Piriczki's reading of the edits. They are not appropriate.--SabreBD (talk) 20:53, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Good new Billboard article source (Dec 2015)

"Classic Rock Radio at 30: The Songs Change, So Does the Vibe Remain the Same?" - Billboard, 14 Dec 2015. --Tsavage (talk) 19:53, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Ratings?

Here are some recent stats from Nielsen showing the continued ratings strength of the Classic Rock radio format in the U.S. in 2015: http://historyofclassicrockradio.com/classic-rock-is-still-going-strong/. I think this would make a good addition. Thoughts? SethResler (talk) 15:48, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Edit Conflict

​@Ohnothimagain: I accidentally reverted your edit 25 minutes ago. Can you share why my previous edit had inaccurate content? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pianostar9 (talk • contribs) 14:34, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

The claim that KRBE was the first to name the format classic rock is inaccurate and is clearly contradicted in the preceding paragraph. Your next addition: "Originally, it was around 1965 to 1975, but 1980s rock started slowly being added around the 1990s." is also inaccurate and you seem to misunderstand what the sources are saying. The first source refers to rock music of a certain era, not radio programming and the second source is not a reliable source. Ohnothimagain (talk) 14:59, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Programming

I believe the programming portion of the article can be improved upon. I like the idea of the references on different types of genres, but it should be more elaborated on. There should also be other examples on top of the rolling stones that dominated the classic rock period. Alex Steighner (talk) 16:49, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Analysis and criticism

About half of this section is the career music bore Robert 'Must be featured in every band or album article on Wikipedia' Christgau, 'Classic Rock' is the archetype of the sort of music Christgau deplores so his slating of it is hardly unexpected. It would be nice to have more contributions from critics with the ability to see classic rock starting from a more neutral perspective (mere adoration is as useless as knee-jerk dismissal). Stub Mandrel (talk) 18:47, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Applicable to United States only

The first statement of this article is not applicable worldwide. Classic Rock as a "radio format" I would suggest is exclusively an American affair.

Whilst the second statement qualifies this, it makes no mention of the fact that the format has little or no meaning elsewhere in the world. Musicfan1353 (talk) 10:39, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Outdated sentences

I'm fairly sure these sentences are outdated, as they are predicting future trends, but are sourced to something from 2006:

There has been a recent revival in the older fashions of classic rock in the early 2000s. Back in the prime of classic rock radio during the 1970s and 1980s, when it was mainstream, and radio was the main form of accessing the music, classic rock soared in to every individual's ear. Classic rock will not overtake the current style of hip-hop/pop, but teenagers specifically are set to introduce the contents of classic rock into their rotation of music.

—Lights and freedom (talk ~ contribs) 03:13, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

That content was added by an EDU editor (student editing wikipedia as part of an academic class), and that sort of writing (lots of words but little "meat") is typical. The ref is good, but is already summarized much more succinctly and concretely later in the section, so I removed the portion you quoted above. Schazjmd (talk) 13:58, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Define Classic Rock

I don't care if I get kicked off. Classic Rock is rock of the '60s through early '80s. It does not extend into the 1990s, and just because a song reaches a certain age does not make it "Classic". It's become apparent that I'm in the minority in thinking that, but it doesn't automatically make me wrong. The wholier than thou editors around here will only accept certain narratives, and it makes me question everything I've ever read on Wikipedia. Boney421 (talk) 21:06, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

@Boney421: do you have a source --FMSky (talk) 21:15, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

FFS. Yeah, I posted a source, and it got changed back because it wasn't good enough for whoever it was that changed it. Boney421 (talk) 21:42, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

If you mean this source, from what I can tell it would not meet our standards for what's a reliable source. Yes, Ben Vaughn is notable, a former musician with a syndicated radio show. However, he did not write the blog entry in question and I can not find anything about this Charlie Kerlinger person who did. Further, I did not see anything under "About" that suggests Vaughn or someone acting on his behalf exercises editorial oversight over what's published on the blog.

But to be fair that's really beside the point in defining what classic rock is, and isn't, since that's an inherently subjective question. If I were brutally honest, I would say that "classic rock" is whatever the program director of the classic-rock station you're listening to at the time says it is.

I would commend your attention to Steven Hyden's book Twilight of the Gods: A Journey to the End of Classic Rock, from which I a long time ago added what is currently the very last footnote in the article. Seriously ... get it, read it, and then tell me what you think (I think perhaps we could add much more from that book ...) Daniel Case (talk) 22:00, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

could this work as a source: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/sep/14/solved-what-is-classic-rock-rolling-stones-bruce-springsteen-the-killers "This places the 'golden era' of classic rock roughly between 1964 and 1982." --FMSky (talk) 09:40, 5 August 2023 (UTC) ":::But to be fair that's really beside the point in defining what classic rock is, and isn't, since that's an inherently subjective question. If I were brutally honest, I would say that "classic rock" is whatever the program director of the classic-rock station you're listening to at the time says it is." Well, in reply to this, program directors play non-classic rock music that their audience likes also. they don't play exclusively classic rock. they play popular music from other rock genres also. they will play Teen Spirit from Nirvana but they won't play Rape Me. Nirvana being played on a classic rock station doesn't take away from the idea that Nirvana is not classic rock. go to Nirvana's wikipedia page and change their style to classic rock if you are convinced they are classic rock. otherwise, if you can't get the classic rock label added, Nirvana isn't classic rock and FiveThirtyEight's article is wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:9800:B970:6AD:9174:4AEE:833C:C828 (talk) 04:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

That would work, yes, because it's not worded as "nothing outside those years", although I would agree that that forms the core of the classic rock playlist (The station I listen to, though, plays a lot of '80s hard rock and heavy metal as well, along with U2 and R.E.M., from past that date).

I honestly tend to see classic rock as as much of function of the artists that get played as the years, perhaps on a sliding scale. I hear no U2 past All That You Can't Leave Behind, very little post-Tattoo You Stones, and no post-Hold Your Fire Rush (and very little of that, TBH ... I think they sometimes play "Time Stand Still". A shame, because I still like a lot of stuff from Roll the Bones.

And even the classic-rock mainstay artists have lacunae. Elton John is ubiquitous on most classic-rock stations, if you're listening all day you're very likely to hear one of his songs, but it won't ever be "Little Jeannie" even though he had a number one US hit with that in 1980. Also from later that year, the Doobie Brothers' "Real Love" doesn't exist for classic rock stations, even though it's the third-biggest hit they ever had. Both of these, I think, are because the songs are just too pop for classic rock.

I do think Boney has a point in that classic rock has only made the '90s part of its canon (save work by bands like U2 and R.E.M. that started their careers during the '80s) in recent years. That movement comes with less play (if any) for some '70s acts like, say, Mountain (really, TBH, I thought "Mississippi Queen" was overplayed on '80s classic rock) and Ten Years After (although I think that's because they don't like having to play "I'd Love to Change the World" with that "dykes and fairies" reference cut. And also frankly, although I'd not call him untalented and this impression is not entirely his fault, Alvin Lee is the most overrated guitarist in rock history). If we could find some sourcing for that and put it in the article, I think he'd see what he wants to see. Daniel Case (talk) 18:20, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Analysis/Criticism section is inappropriate

I don't think it specifically violates the principle against criticism sections, but this kind of academic obscurantism is inappropriate for Wikipedia. If you want to cite an academic thesis on classic rock, there may be a place for that, but it doesn't need to take up so much space and crowd out more relevant information. This article should explain what classic rock is as a music genre and how it is typically understood. 2603:7081:1603:A300:6D07:A065:FFEF:FEF9 (talk) 13:13, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Lol now I now you dont know what the hell you're talking about when you misuse words like obscurantism ... 𝒮𝒾𝓇 𝒯𝑒𝒻𝓁𝑜𝓃 (talk | contribs) 13:40, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Using "criticism" as a section title is generally frowned upon, so I'd recommend a section title change, but otherwise there's nothing wrong with the content present as long as it is correctly sourced and attributed to reliable sources. I'd recommend adding additional content, either elsewhere in the article, or in the given section for a potential counter-narrative, instead. Sergecross73 msg me 19:36, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Archetypical Classic Rock Correction

The statement (and picture) listed on the right side of the page make the claim that Fleetwood Mac is Classic Rock branded. It states:

Fleetwood Mac are considered an archetypical classic rock or "dad rock" act.

The footnote to this claim is a dead link and indicative of an opinion, a novice off-the-cuff statement, and not a music historian. The core principle of Classic Rock that it is fundamentally blues rock and hard rock, as you have already posted. Fleetwood Mac aren't, and additionally not AOR based. Stereotypically, Fleetwood Mac are closer to "Popular Rock" (pop rock) or traditional weekly chart top 40 music.

Consider this source:

Classic Rock: A Guide to Classic Rock’s History and Sound https://www.masterclass.com/articles/classic-rock-guide

Direct quote from Masterclass.com:

The classic rock genre encompasses rock music made over three decades, from '60s psychedelia and ’70s album-oriented rock (AOR) to 1980s college rock, heavy metal, and 1990s grunge. Most classic rock songs are guitar-driven, and the genre has many guitar heroes—from Jimi Hendrix to Jeff Beck to Eddie Van Halen. Classic rock bands are also known for iconic lead singers, from Mick Jagger of the Rolling Stones to Robert Plant of Led Zeppelin to Axl Rose of Guns N' Roses. Note48 (talk) 14:17, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

I must add that the link being dead is also a huge sign that spin.com was unsure of the topic in general, abandoning the subject. The further truth is that spin.com lists this on their "about" page:

SPIN IS IMPERFECT. IT’S ROUGH- EDGED, RESTLESS, INSATIABLY CURIOUS. A LITTLE AGGRESSIVE, A LITTLE COCKY.

Nix the Fleetwood Mac reference.

Drop the mike. I rest my case. Note48 (talk) 14:22, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

I had a career in radio and while I'm not a historian or expert, I know that too many people professionally disagree in their own works. I only state my music experience for relevance but not facts. I was a KLOS format engineer and have a small picture of what Classic Rock is and isn't. Again, I'm not an expert, but I'm not clueless.

There are hundreds of differing opinions about what Classic Rock is, and what it isn't. If you read enough articles and books you’ll find numerous contradictions and they come down to personal bias, nothing more. Someone who lived in the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s, and 90’s is in no way an expert. Their training is hours and hours of listening to music and forming an opinion. The truth is that many of these enthusiasts are Saturday music men (& women).

So how would someone know how to merge all available information (from viable sources) and not second guess it?

So, I began to look for viable works with professional bias, and discount anyone that has no formal training in or around the topic of music.

Here are some texts that have merit and some that don’t.

1) Encyclopedia of classic rock: David Luhrsson is a co-author with Michael Larson.

I find this work to be factless. No external quotes, no experience in the music business, more interested in writing about wars as per his authorship titles. Per his bio he is not a “music” historian in any notable way. His characterization of Classic Rock is that it was from 1965-1975. While there was "some" Classic Rock noted from many texts, to those years, It is far more than 1965-1975. This author may have taught at the High School level and written about wars, but with only a single work based on music and no footnotes. I argue he isn't an authority. His co-author Michael Larson is also lacking any formal music training. He grew up on a farm and in his bio, there is no reference to music studies.

I personally depreciate this text completely.

2) Inside Classic Rock Tracks: Songwriting and Recording Secrets of 100 Great ... By Rikky Rooksby

This piece analyzes specific artists rather than define the genre. In his list of Classic Rock groups he includes “The Supremes”, “The Beach Boys” , The Four Tops”, “Marvin Gaye” and a host of other artists who are clearly not Classic Rock based. None have the hard rhythm and guitars one would hear in a Classic Rock Band.

I personally depreciate this text completely.

3) "Classic Rock: A Guide to Classic Rock’s History and Sound" Written by MasterClass

At first blush it looks like this is a legitimate source for courses and is used by numerous legitimate companies that would be certain to verify its legitimacy. Google, Capital One, Deloitte, Microsoft, Square, and PayPal to name a few.

A deeper dive into the above course: It is taught by a music professionals: video lessons taught by the world’s best, including Tom Morello, St. Vincent, Sheila E., Timbaland, Itzhak Perlman, Herbie Hancock, and more.

Their approach is not slapped together. There is a strong push to find professionals that really know their business.

My opinion: For a solid Classic Rock definition I go to this for a solid start.

'Here I QUOTE the introduction text:

https://www.masterclass.com/articles/classic-rock-guide

QUOTE:

The rock music that dominated FM radio stations in the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s is often collectively grouped under the banner of classic rock. In the twenty-first century, classic rock is a blanket term that describes American and British rock music through the early 1990s.

The classic rock genre encompasses rock music made over three decades, from '60s psychedelia and ’70s album-oriented rock (AOR) to 1980s college rock, heavy metal, and 1990s grunge. Most classic rock songs are guitar-driven, and the genre has many guitar heroes—from Jimi Hendrix to Jeff Beck to Eddie Van Halen. Classic rock bands are also known for iconic lead singers, from Mick Jagger of the Rolling Stones to Robert Plant of Led Zeppelin to Axl Rose of Guns N' Roses.

As the rock era unfolds, more artists are grouped into the classic rock radio format. While groups as disparate as Pink Floyd, the Jackson 5, Bonnie Raitt, and R.E.M. may have appeared on different radio stations in the past, today their songs can be heard on the same classic rock stations throughout the U.S.

As a genre, classic rock is fluid, and its inception point varies from one music history to another.

Early rock origins: Some trace the genre to 1950s rock 'n' roll from Elvis Presley, Little Richard, and Jerry Lee Lewis. Others believe the classic rock era begins with the arrival of the Beatles in the early 1960s, with other British bands like the Rolling Stones following close behind. Others trace its origins to the late 1960s, when many in the Baby Boomer generation were teenagers.

1970s heyday: In all accounts, the genre was well established by the 1970s. English groups like the Kinks, the Who, Pink Floyd, and Black Sabbath devised original music based on American blues and R&B. The United States had a prolific rock scene, from Boston (home of Aerosmith) to Los Angeles (home of Tom Petty, the Eagles, and the Doors). Songs of this era became longer and more ambitious, as progressive rock bands like Rush, Yes, and Genesis blended elements of jazz and classical music into rock 'n' roll.

Heavy sounds of the ’80s: In the 1980s hard rock groups like AC/DC, Metallica, Guns N' Roses, and Def Leppard dominated the rock radio airwaves. Meanwhile, a genre known as college rock came pouring out of university towns throughout America, such as Athens Georgia (home of R.E.M. and the B-52s). Punk rock from cities like New York and Washington, DC, also gained popularity. While these styles would not have commingled on 1980s radio, they are increasingly grouped together on today's classic rock platforms.

Classic rock era ends: The classic rock era ends in either the late 1980s or early 1990s. By this point, many classic rock giants of the 1970s were still going strong while other groups that were heavily inspired by 1970s music came of age. Groups from the ’90s such as Nirvana, Soundgarden, and Pearl Jam are increasingly heard on the same classic rock stations as KISS and the Beatles.

4 Characteristics of Classic Rock

As more and more subgenres fall under the umbrella of classic rock, a few defining characteristics unify them.

1. Similar core instrumentation: Most classic rock is performed on guitar, bass, and drums, which back up a lead vocalist. Starting in the early 1980s, many classic rock groups added keyboards to their instrumental palette, particularly in subgenres like New Wave.

2. Overdriven guitars: The classic rock guitar sound almost always has some form of overdrive (such as on "Heartbreaker" by Led Zeppelin), distortion (such as on "Thunderstruck" by AC/DC), or fuzz (such as on "Satisfaction" by the Rolling Stones).

3. Personal lyrical content: Classic rock features an abundance of love songs and confessionals. Some classic rockers, particularly 1970s prog rockers, drew inspiration from books, films, and mythology. Other groups favor inspirational lyrics, like those of Queen's "We Are the Champions."

4. Subversive public image: Many classic rock bands pushed against societal norms. From the mop-topped Beatles to the leather-bound Billy Idol, classic rockers often styled their image to enthrall teenagers.

ENDQUOTE. Note48 (talk) 00:08, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Fleetwood Mac is included in Encyclopedia of Classic Rock and Listen to Classic Rock: Exploring a Musical Genre. Steven Hyden wrote:

Classic rock didn't exist as a genre until the early 1980s, when stations in middle-American cities like Cleveland and Houston that had once aspired to a progressive mix of new music and obscure album cuts began relying on the same old familiar songs by the most famous and successful bands of the sixties and seventies. ... For listeners like me, who didn't know what radio was like before this change occurred, classic rock seemed like an entrenched concept that had been passed down organically from up on high. But that wasn't really the case: radio had codified a generation of bands—the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, the Eagles, the Doors, Fleetwood Mac—as "classic" because it was convenient marketing.

I question the "archetypical" adjective, but Fleetwood Mac is clearly supported by reliable sources as a band included in that genre.

References

Schazjmd (talk) 14:57, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

A couple quick things.

Having lived in the 60's 70s 80s and on, I can share more since you claimed you started listening in the 80s. I was a jockey for KLOS. Classic Rock existed in the 70s and late 60's.

My reference to Masterclass.com is valid. Its an online course producer, taught by professionals. That site is closer to the correct assumptions that most other references.

I'm merely suggesting that opinions have no place in Wikipedia. Note48 (talk) 15:12, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

You misread my post. I haven't claimed anything, I quoted Steven Hyden from Twilight of the Gods. Your "Masterclass" ref doesn't state that Fleetwood Mac isn't in the "classic rock" genre; that's your interpretation. And generally, any genre classification is someone's opinion. I think the books that I cited are bit more authoritative than an anonymously-written essay. Schazjmd (talk) 15:21, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Might I suggest that a better approach for you to take would be to locate and propose an alternate image to be used in the article as representative of the genre? Schazjmd (talk) 15:29, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

A couple quick things. Having lived in the 60's 70s 80s and on, I can share more since you claimed you started listening in the 80s. I was a radio for KLOS. Note48 (talk) 15:28, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

I did not start listening in the 80s. I did not say that I started listening in the 80s. Schazjmd (talk) 15:30, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

I guess that I would like to have the definitions (already sort of ambiguous and subject to interpretation) from several recent sources. Thanks for the input! Note48 (talk) 15:40, 15 October 2023 (UTC)