Talk:Birdsill Holly

Birdsill Holly was one of the Engineering and technology good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
October 29, 2020	Good article nominee	Listed
February 25, 2023	Good article reassessment	Delisted

A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on January 28, 2016.

The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that Birdsill Holly invented a water pumping system for city mains that not only supplied drinking water for domestic service, but also furnished water under pressure for fire hydrants (Holly fire hydrant pictured)?

Current status: Delisted good article

Biography: Science and Academia

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by the science and academia work group (assessed as Mid-importance).

Engineering High‑importance

	Engineering portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Engineering, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of engineering on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EngineeringWikipedia:WikiProject EngineeringTemplate:WikiProject EngineeringEngineering articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

New York (state) Mid‑importance

	New York (state) portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject New York (state), a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of New York on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New York (state)Wikipedia:WikiProject New York (state)Template:WikiProject New York (state)New York (state) articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Guild of Copy Editors

This article was copy edited by Tenryuu, a member of the Guild of Copy Editors, on 12 August 2020.Guild of Copy EditorsWikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsTemplate:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsGuild of Copy Editors articles

Untitled[edit]

I once heard a story about why he isn't famous -- something about marrying his stepsdaughter or stepsister or something... anyone know? I'm not monitoring this page anymore, so just add it if you know.

Harv errors[edit]

Please do NOT remove sources as they are used for reference for the inline references. By removing the source book it causes "harv errors" = which is a lot of red mistakes to us experienced editors that know how this should be done properly. The text quote is from page 45 of the book (at the bottom). It is proper to give an important fact in a quote, if it is relevant and important. In this case it is. Do not remove it!--Doug Coldwell (talk) 15:36, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:39, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hind's book is an unreliable source. His text is copied from the Web. Here is an example of original text taken from a web page posted in 2002,

https://web.archive.org/web/20020617125909/http://www.firehydrant.org/pictures/hydrant_history.html

Hinds book was posted ten years later and does not acknowledge this as the source of his text.

The Birdsill Holly article is a C Class article and needs improving. Do not add unreliable sources such as this. Zzorse (talk) 16:04, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My experience of 400 Did You Know articles tells me Hinds' reference book makes an excellent reliable source for this article. More than 10,000 viewers of this article have confirmed this as nobody other than you have any objection. My experience also tells me that I have no way of knowing that the web page came first. I suspect it came AFTER the book. Hinds is an excellent historian and makes for a good reference book. What does your experience tell you? --Doug Coldwell (talk) 14:27, 1 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that this source should not be removed. I suggest that other than removing reliable sources, Zzorse is invited to help improve this article. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:41, 1 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Conrade C. Hinds[edit]

Here is some information on the author Conrade C. Hinds = the person that wrote "The Great Columbus Experiment of 1908: Waterworks that Changed the World." --Doug Coldwell (talk) 15:53, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

GOCE copyedit request[edit]

Alright, Doug Coldwell, some questions as usual:

They were reported shunned by Lockport society and moved away for a time in hopes of the scandal blowing over. Did the Lockport society both report and shun the two? What does "report" mean in this context (they were mentioned in a news article, they were turned over to the police, etc.)? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:37, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reworded that paragraph to make it clearer. This is my understanding as I see it from reporter Hare's 1998 newspaper article. Can you look it over to see if I have my grammar correct. Thanks. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 20:13, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done. I re-attributed the information as while Hare was the one who wrote the article that is cited, Frederickson is the one who wrote the thesis. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 19:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Holly was the firm's visionary and contributed much to their success. The idea of Holly being the visionary could be integrated into the sentences before, but can "contributed much to their success" be removed? I can see it being possibly kept if the success is attributed to Holly's ideas. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:37, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The 3 partner firm's success was due to Holly's ideas, so kept the part "contributed much to their success" -> see University of Rochester inline reference with quote.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 20:55, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Reworded.—Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 19:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Holly was a co-inventor of the Silsby steam fire engine in 1855, which was first produced in 1856. Is it important to state when the fire engine was invented? The nearby source^[1] doesn't mention that. It only talks about Silsby releasing the engine in 1856. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:37, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Good catch! Took out "in 1855" in copy edit.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 21:00, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done by requester. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 19:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The first of these machines weighed up to 9,500 pounds and produced 60 pounds of steam pressure, enough to propel four streams of water over 200 feet. If six fire hoses were used the streams of water were about 150 feet each. The nozzles to the fire hoses were just a little over one inch. The greatest distance recorded for a stream was 364 feet on 24 September 1881 in Reading, Pennsylvania. This sounds like a bit too much detail. The two sentences in the middle could be removed from the article: the If six fire [...] sentence is given as an example without a strong reason and The nozzles [...] sentence is described in careful detail without any explanation for its importance. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:37, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Took out middle two sentences as suggested = much better. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 21:09, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done by requester. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 19:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Holly's machinery inventions used pressure to pump water directly into the main city water supply lines, since there were no water towers at the time for pressure from a local water supply reservoir for drinking water and fire protection. I'm not sure why the inventions are specified to be machines; nowhere else in the article does it mention Holly creating something that isn't a machine or a machine part. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:37, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done - Took out "machinery" in copy edit.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:10, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Holly’s interests switched from fire protection systems to the problem of heating buildings from a central point for better energy efficiency. Can the second concept be simplified to central heating (with the link)? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:37, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done Yes = central heating --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:02, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The serviced buildings were metered and charged for the heat consumed from the steam supply. The metering was done by the water condensation of the steam they received. To clarify, the amount of heating used was determined by the amount of condensation recorded? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:37, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Working on your condensation question. Meanwhile, I just added ...installed in over 2000 towns and cities... to Holly Steam Combination Company (GAN 23 June 2020) with a news clip ref. I think my wording on the grammar is correct on this addition to that article. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:37, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done reworded: The serviced buildings were metered and charged for the heat consumed from the steam supply in accordance with coal comparison rates. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 17:17, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nearby there is a tourist viewing structure, that has a height measuring 775 feet (236 m) from the bottom of the falls. Stray sentence that should be somewhere in the previous paragraph, but what is its relevance to Holly? The height? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:37, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done Put into previous paragraph. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:41, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done further. Reworded it slightly to make it a little more relevant to the unrealised tower. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 19:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

He is noted for his inventions related to city water system equipment and apparatus for fire protection. It's a little oddly worded. I noticed that in one of the sources used he is credited for inventing the fire hydrant. I'm thinking of adding that in as that seems really notable. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:37, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that would be good. I tried to do that before, however User:Zzorse always removes that

so I just reworded so I didn't waste more time with that. If you notice, my Did You Know even reflects on that idea. Yes, go ahead and add back in that he is credited for inventing the fire hydrant. I have more time now on my hands (because of the Stay Home pandemic orders), so I am willing to fight him on this fact - especially since there are sources that say this, like the excellent reference ASME. Thanks! --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:59, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Reference #6 of Lockport Cave website is also another good reference for Holly's fire patent.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:31, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In his patent, Birdsill Holly did not claim to invent the fire hydrant. A number of fire hydrant patents predate Holly's patent. Any statement that Birdsill Holly invented the fire hydrant is false, any implication that Birdsill Holly invented the fire hydrant is misleading. A statement that Birdsill Holly patented a fire hydrant is factual. He did not invent the fire hydrant. Zzorse (talk) 15:18, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thinking... There seems to be a lot of argument over who invented the fire hydrant; there are some other sources that claim that Frederick Graff was the one to have invented the hydrant. I will refrain from participating in this type of content dispute. In the meantime, how about changing the last sentence in the lead to He is known for inventing mechanical devices that improved city water systems and firefighting? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 19:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

~~The section heading "Future plans": I'm thinking of renaming this into something else; as it is right now it sounds like Holly will realise these plans in our future sometime.~~ —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:37, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. O.K. Go ahead and rename to that of your choice. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:34, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Another idea - the section Death could perhaps be changed to Personal life and the now existing section of "Personal life" changed to "Early life." Here is a newspaper clip I just came across (in researching for answers for your comments and pointers) that has a lot of his personal life information. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:58, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Here is another Obituary that says his birth date as Oct 8, 1820. I had originally put in born 8 November 1820 and used reference #1 to back that up. Maybe this website source is incorrect?? Change to 8 October 1820?--Doug Coldwell (talk) 11:12, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I went ahead and changed his birth to 8 October 1820, as these seems to be many sources that say this. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:02, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I'll leave that up to you. The web page that his date of death is cited from also claims he was born on 8 August 1822.^[2] I've gone ahead and moved "Death" into personal life; it didn't seem particularly notable to deserve its own section, but feel free to separate it again if you feel otherwise. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 19:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I changed the section heading title to "Unrealized plans", but if you think it should be something else -> go ahead and change it.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:41, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done by requester. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 19:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The concept of such heights for skyscraper buildings did transpire however in New York City shortly before his death in 1894, but were not of his architectural concepts. Wording is a little confusing here. I'm guessing that these skyscrapers were actually built at a similar height, but were not inspired from Holly's designs? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:37, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done Copy edited accordingly. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:41, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ambiguous. Which definition of "transpire" is being used? "To become known" or "to happen"? The word "concept" is used, so I'm inclined to believe it is using "to be known" as the definition, but it could also mean that skyscrapers using that concept were being built shortly before his death. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 19:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Took a guess and reworded the sentence. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 21:46, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Looking forward to your responses! —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:37, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Tenryuu: Working your other comments and will give an answer on each after I get back from the dentist. Thanks for the great work. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:59, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Tenryuu: - addressed all your concerns. Can you take another look now and see if we have covered everything you think is necessary to have the article at Good Article standards. Thanks.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:41, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Doug Coldwell: Most of the questions have been answered, though there's a few remaining that could be clarified; one of them has a comment about source veracity in regards to Holly's birth and death dates that you might want to take a look at. In the meantime I'll publish my changes for my second pass. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 19:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, seems everything is done here, so I'll consider the request done. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 21:46, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

Copyright contributor investigation and Good article reassessment[edit]

This article is part of Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/20210315 and the Good article (GA) drive to reassess and potentially delist over 200 GAs that might contain copyright and other problems. An AN discussion closed with consensus to delist this group of articles en masse, unless a reviewer opens an independent review and can vouch for/verify content of all sources. Please review Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/February 2023 for further information about the GA status of this article, the timeline and process for delisting, and suggestions for improvements. Questions or comments can be made at the project talk page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 09:36, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttps://www.asme.org/engineering-topics/articles/construction-and-building/birdsill-holly-jr

[2] ttps://lockportcave.com/birdsill-holly/

[1]

[2]