Talk:Juan José Ibarretxe

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Untitled[edit]

a lot of the basque people think Ibarreche doesn´t represent better form basque country because of his plan of independence from spain that is giving morao force ETA terrotists, and try to exclude half of the basque population.

That is not true Ibarretxe is our president. The president of all basque people in the Basque Autonomous Community and Navarre

GORA IBARRETXE

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Nationality[edit]

In this edit [1] the "nationality" parameter of the infobox was deleted and the nationality in the header was modified.

In Spain the nationality is Spanish, there is no other possibility. The jurisprudence of the Constitutional Court of Spain determines that the concept of nation and nationality are not synonymous, declaring that the Constitution of Spain only admits one nation, which is the Spanish Nation. Therefore, the correct thing to do is to refer to any person from Spain as Spanish.

"El TC subraya que «la Constitución no conoce otra Nación que la española» TC: Constitutional Court of Spain

"Nación, sólo la española

Sobre el término nación, el texto del Constitucional dice: «De la nación puede, en efecto, hablarse como una realidad cultural, histórica, lingüística, sociológica y hasta religiosa. Pero la nación que aquí importa es única y exclusivamente la nación en sentido jurídico-constitucional. Y en ese específico sentido la Constitución no conoce otra que la Nación española».

De todas formas, el TC admite que Cataluña tenga «símbolos nacionales», pero explica que se refieren únicamente a «su condición de símbolos de una nacionalidad constituida como Comunidad Autónoma en ejercicio del derecho que reconoce y garantiza el art. 2 (...). Se trata, en suma, de los símbolos propios de una nacionalidad, sin pretensión, por ello, de competencia o contradicción con los símbolos de la Nación española»."

See also Sentencia del Tribunal Constitucional sobre el Estatuto de Autonomía de Cataluña de 2006

Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biographies#Context clearly states that the country of which the subject of the biography is a citizen should be used, not others.

Also, the Basque Country is officially the Basque Autonomous Community. See Basque Country (autonomous community).--BallenaBlanca 🐳 ♂ (Talk) 15:20, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Spanish Constitutional Court or Spanish law is no one to decide on what is information or not, let alone in the WP, and least of all in the present-day political context, when the authority and neutrality of Spanish legal decisions are more than contested, beginning by Transparency International. Iñaki LL (talk) 21:05, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You are erasing the nationality, you are violating Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biographies#Context and you are rejecting the information from verifiable sources. You are not providing any source, only personal opinions. You are also violating WP:TALK#FACTS. --BallenaBlanca 🐳 ♂ (Talk) 21:12, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The information given on Wikipedia for biographies does not solely list the "passport nationality" of people but also any relevant other ethnic affiliations. For instance, virtually all articles on Scottish people (for example Nicola Sturgeon) only state in the lede that they are "Scottish politicians/bankers/whatever". Just because they hold German/British/Spanish passports does not mean it erases their ethnic ties or indeed that these cannot be listed or mentioned. Indeed if this would be the case, we'd have to remove all references to Tibetans on Wikipedia. Akerbeltz (talk) 10:28, 26 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is not comparable with Scottish people. Scotland and England are countries, whereas Basque Country (autonomous community) is an autonomous community, as we can see in the title of the page itself, officially the Basque Autonomous Community (see Basque Country (autonomous community)). Clearly, Scotland/England situation is not comparable to that of Basque Autonomous Community. More explanations here.
Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies#Context says: The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable. Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability.]]
So the correct thing is to put Spanish and complete it later and/or in the infobox with the rest of the data. --BallenaBlanca 🐳 ♂ (Talk) 11:47, 26 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I corrected WP:Indent above. First of all, I have responded to your recent activity in your personal page, which is the main matter of concern. You are confusing quite obviously citizenship, a legal concept, and nationality. You may want to convert it into forced nationality, since anyone with a grasp of the topic knows that the Basque have never been Spanish as nationality until imposed Spanish constitutions in the 19th century started to force that term over the Basques.
Now coming to the article, the removal of "Basque" (no one denies he is a Basque), a critical information to understand the national background of the person or for whomever wishes to approach this person/politican does not help in the slightest the reader get a picture, or smooth editing. The flag of Spain / the labelling of Spanish is in itself as you know a bone of contention, a red hot matter, and very questionable. So please stick to an inclusive approach and the right for knowledge and diversity as stated principles of the Wikimedia movement.
As I pointed in your page, the MoS is not a throwing weapon, or a dogma, or a policy. So do you use with common sense, and constructively. Iñaki LL (talk) 19:45, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There is an open discussion at Talk:Carles Puigdemont#Nationality. The same applies to the case of the Basque Autonomous Community. --BallenaBlanca 🐳 ♂ (Talk) 20:09, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
WP:MOS clearly states that only the country where the person is a citizen should be used. I believe that there is no argument that during all his life up to the present Ibarrretxe has been and currently is a citizen of is Spain. This is not questionable, the issues Iñaki raises are not relevant for that part of the lead, so Spanish and not Spanish-Basque should be used. To address those issues however I have added the fact that he advocated Basque nationalism along with a reference. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 09:26, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Off topic
First of all, I am detecting here one-purpose editing which I do not like. Editors that have done nothing to do with with these articles and are eager to come push an extremely controversial national identity, one the person in question would not accept, and just directly projecting political events and tensions in present-day Spain to the WP. Definitely, it speaks volumes by itself, I am not saying anything more.

Also this very question is being discussed in Talk:Carles Puigdemont#Nationality. Iñaki LL (talk) 21:10, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Once again... Please WP:TPYES "Comment on content, not on the contributor: Keep the discussions focused upon the topic of the talk page, rather than on the personalities of the editors contributing to the talk page." --BallenaBlanca 🐳 ♂ (Talk) 21:22, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Off topic
Something you did not here, but anyways... that is your style.

Iñaki LL (talk) 21:32, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, you have come to revert my edit, controversially so, since removal of nationality is a matter of contention. Still I do not know what your relation is with that article. It is a topic a I have worked on, but it looks as if you are following my steps, isn´t that right? Regards
—  Iñaki LL (talk) 22:17, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
Hi. I am not; like you have shown in one of your edits], I currently have in my watchlist around 40 articles of Spanish biographies that were subject to POV pushing by a sockpuppet that also edit warred in the main topic I edit in, Venezuela. Federico Krutwig is among them, but Jorge Oteiza is not. Now, I personally don't disagree with including both terms, the sockpuppet actually deleted or replaced "Spanish" and I was the editor that added both words trying to balance the introduction, but many of the articles said "Spanish" originally and since BallenaBlanca provided arguments to back up the original version I commented about the articles on their talk page. I think your distinction between nationality and citizenship is important and I recently added this field in the infobox hoping that it helps to reach a consensus. In any case, it is a discussion I really would prefer not to get involved into and I only look for keeping a stable version. Cheers.
—  Jamez42 (talk) 22:33, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
Thanks Jamez42 for your reply. I will go through the edits. Not about you, but editing on national matters is always sensitive, especially if it is an article another editor has worked on. Someone is altering automatically definitions of articles, without nuance and with a lot of self-entitlement, and frankly it is raising red flags.
—  Iñaki LL (talk) 22:47, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
No worries, thank you for writing to me directly. I totally understand your concern, I'd only suggest to continue looking for a common ground. If you feel that the issue is going too far, I'd recommend to seek dispute resolution. Let me know if I can help with anything else.
—  Jamez42 (talk) 22:54, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Just for the sake of the discussion, I think it is important that I copy these messages from my talk page. Diffs were deleted since they didn't let the quotes be displayed. --Jamez42 (talk) 23:48, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

King of Spain, edit warring[edit]

Note that the king of Spain is not part of the institutional, structural make-up of the autonomous community, despite them being part of the Spanish state, obviously so. See also here for one, etc. Please do stop edit warring and bring your concerns here. Thanks Iñaki LL (talk) 07:35, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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