Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history

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Pronunciation key for "Gneisenau"[edit]

I think it would be helpful to add a pronunciation note for articles with Gneisenau in the title. It seems most English speakers mispronounce it with a silent G, and I do not believe it should be assumed that English speakers know that most letters are not silent in German. However I am not 100% sure on this and the help of German speakers or other experts would be much appreciated to render it in IPA.

Relevant articles can be found at the Gneisenau DAB page, but I think the most important would be:

Thank you for your consideration. 93 (talk) 03:12, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

A pronunciation key is probably needed for uncommon foreign words and names if there is any doubt, imo. But double check WP:MOSPRON in the "Appropriate use" section. Regards, -Fnlayson (talk) 03:49, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
Thanks, I believe it would satisfy appropriateness as a foreign name that is not common, on par with Khrushchev. I would also argue it is counterintuitive due to "gn" usually being pronounced as /n/ in English as in gneiss, gnome, or Gnosticism. To minimize intrusiveness I would add it as an explanatory footnote for the two pages bulleted above.
I don't know German but here is a draft IPA made using a YouTube recording, German phonology and Help:IPA/Standard German:
German pronunciation: [ˈgnaɪ̯zɛnaʊ̯]
Thanks, 93 (talk) 05:02, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
If you still need a German speaker to confirm, the folks at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language should be able to help. Alansplodge (talk) 15:38, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
Thanks, opened a discussion there. 93 (talk) 22:33, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Hello, former German student hier! I'm no phonetics expert but the G in Gneisenau is certainly pronounced. -Indy beetle (talk) 04:56, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Old A-class articles[edit]

I don't know if this is the most appropriate place to ask this, but ... Okay, during the early days of Wikipedia (long before I was here), few other Wikiprojects like Bio and Math used to have their own A-class reviewing system (See this and this). Articles like Alan Keyes and Peano axioms were successfully nominated, and are yet rated A-class, when, in my opinion, they don't even meet GA criteria. Since all other Wikiproject A-class review system are marked historical, I was wondering what is the process to re-assess/delist them? I asked this in Wikiproject Bio, but was suggested to ask the same here. Thanks! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 18:29, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

If there's no A-class process, I don't think anyone can object to unilateral delisting. WP:IAR and the articles clearly do not meet A-class by any reasonable definition. I reasesessed the Keyes article as C-class. (t · c) buidhe 00:15, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
G'day Kavyansh.Singh. This project has an operational A-Class delisting process, and if someone thinks a Milhist article is sub-standard they need to use that, but if another project doesn't have an existing process for A-Class, and it is currently a GA, then the article should be put through a WP:GAR, individual or community, and at the end of that re-assessed where it currently sits. If it isn't a GA as well as A-Class, then presumably you can re-assess it in the normal way. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:08, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
I've started a GAR for Alan Keyes. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 09:57, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Re non-milihst A-class reviews in general, they tend to be done unilaterally and without proper consideration for what A class "should" probably be. Technically, A class is a criteria which can be defined by any project, but since milhist has been so active in this regard and we've moved towards near-FA standards we've set a really high bar for the rest of the project (though we make mistakes). Thus it can mislead editors to list an article as A class without any formal review, since it can appear on the surface a better rating than GA. I'll try and stop someone from listing an article as A across multiple project quality ratings. If someone from a specific project gave it that rating on behalf of their project, it might be worthwhile to consult them on their reasoning and explain why you think the article is faulty. Recent attempts to revive or create A-class procedures in other projects have generally fallen flat. It is useful to look at the June 2018 edition of WikiProject Conservatism's The Right Stuff, where it celebrates the passing of its first A-class article (and only one to date) alongside lots of whining about ANI proceedings with grievances from other editors of the project's gratuitous backslapping and ideological bias which it appears eventually killed the project (though the ANI itself was inconclusive). Long term that kind of A-class system would've certainly become a system of rubber-stamping. I know SandyGeorgia has expressed some worries about friends helping friends at FA in the past. As editors (not MilHist members), we should not allow the rating system to be misused. -Indy beetle (talk) 07:39, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Feel free to Contribute![edit]

Hello there everyone, I'm working on a sandbox here: User:Coldstreamer20/Structure of the Japanese Self Defence Force regarding the structure of the Japanese Army in 2018, with changes to the end of 2021. I'm hereby asking anyone who has further references to feel free to contribute. I would ask that if you do you add a comment at the top of the page and sign it or add a small brief of what was added/removed, etc. Or new units in italics and removed units to be crossed out. Any help is welcome, thanks all! Cheers, Coldstreamer20, feel free to chat here or see my made pages! 04:06, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Trying to identify a VC winner from Gallipoli[edit]

Hi. I have just uploaded a series of images from the Second World War about a ceremony linked to the Gallipoli landings in the First World War. Some of the images, such as this one show a " Sergeant Dick Richards, VC," from the Lancashire Fusiliers, who earned his Victoria Cross at the landing on "W" beach at Gallipoli. I have consulted the lists of VC winners but I can't find his name. The closest I can get is Alfred Joseph Richards, whose story sounds similar to how the Imperial War Museum describes Dick's story. Does anyone have any sources available that would suggest whether Alfred also used "Dick" as a nickname? From Hill To Shore (talk) 17:40, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Anyone with the surname of Richards is highly likely to be nicknamed Dick. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:44, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
Almost certainly him, based on regiment and VC event, apparent age, medal ribbons, that Richards served in WWII and lost his leg and this fellow has a cane. All OR of course, but too many coincidences to be someone else. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:50, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Experienced eyes needed at List of major arms industry corporations by country[edit]

There doesn't seem to be any inclusion or exclusion criteria. I recently removed the entire North Korea section as none of the listed entities are actual companies and they were also all redlinks. The page is regularly edited by only a handfull of editors. I tried to raise a concern about inline external links and WP:WTAF on the talk page but got no response at all. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:27, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

I've just removed the Australian government's space agency, and an Australian small arms company that hasn't existed since the mid-2000s. This article is full of total rubbish. Nick-D (talk) 10:33, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
@Nick-D There seem to be several space agencies and other government/state institutions all over the page. I'll remove the ones I find. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 15:08, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
The whole article is a real throwback to 2000s-era Wikipedia, where we had lots of articles providing semi-random lists of things with no supporting references. Nick-D (talk) 21:46, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
It seems to lack any attempt at referencing. Is it serving a purpose? Gog the Mild (talk) 21:52, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
Those external links in the body... wow, that's really bad. I say nuke it and start over (or just nuke it, period). Trainsandotherthings (talk) 22:09, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
Agree on nuke. A. C. SantacruzPlease ping me! 22:14, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

RAF question[edit]

I posted this at Royal Auxiliary Air Force, but I suspect that page doesn't have enough traffic for me to get an answer to the question, so I thought I'd try here. Currently Royal Air Force Reserve redirects to Royal Auxiliary Air Force, but in Royal Auxiliary Air Force's "Formation" section we have "The Royal Air Force Reserve (RAFR) differs in that its members...", with the link going to Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. If "Royal Air Force Reserve" is usually read to mean the RAFR, shouldn't the redirect from Royal Air Force Reserve go there rather than to Royal Auxiliary Air Force? This came up because T. Stanhope Sprigg, according to a source I have, was in the Royal Air Force Reserve at the start of WWII, and I don't know which article that ought to link to. Thanks for any help. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:45, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

In my opinion Royal Air Force Reserve should be a redirect to Regular Reserve (United Kingdom)#Air Force Reserve, as we have no specific articles for the separate British regular reserves which comprise the RAFR, Royal Fleet Reserve and the Regular Reserve - though I may be a little out of date and the latter may be "Army Reserve (Regular)"? The RAAF is the air force volunteer (part-time) reserve. The RAFVR was originally another volunteer reserve force but now exists only to host the university squadrons and glider and flight experience squadrons for the cadets, it is not liable to call-up. Your man Sprigg was in the RAFVR, he left as a squadron leader in 1954, though was granted the use of higher rank of wing commander - Dumelow (talk) 18:05, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
Thanks. I've fixed the link from the article on Sprigg. I'll leave the redirects to someone who knows more about them. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:26, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
I've changed the redirect - Dumelow (talk) 10:12, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

A little help?[edit]

G'day all, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Coordinators#AutoCheck report for November still has a few Milhistbot-rated articles that need checking by human eyeballs. Any help knocking off the rest greatly appreciated. The December report has already dropped, so if you scroll down a bit from there you'll see some more that need a look. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:47, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Thai navy flag[edit]

There is an issue with {{Navy}} re the calling of the correct flag for the Royal Thai Navy. I think I know what the solution is, but need confirmation before I make any changes to the {{Country data Thailand}} template. Discussion underway at Template talk:Country data Thailand#Template:Navy displays naval ensign flag from Template:Naval instead of navy flag as shown in the template documentation. Mjroots (talk) 12:36, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

New Wikipedia:Nazi affiliation Task Force[edit]

With International Holocaust Remembrance Day coming up on 27 January, after discussing in WP:GERMANY I created a Taskforce on Wikipedia to address coverage of Nazi affiliations of individuals, companies that are possibly whitewashed on Wikipedia. Please join and make some recommendations including any scholarly source that are relevant! Wikipedia:Nazi affiliation Task Force ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 18:35, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

UK MOD insignia images issue - Ministry of Defence Illustration Licence[edit]

Apparently, a Ministry of Defence Illustration Licence permits the use of low resolution MOD logos from their insignia lists available on their Defence Brand Portal website for use on Wikipedia (see 4.7 of the Ministry of Defence copyright licensing information guide).

Coldstreamer20 has uploaded approximately 80 images from the Defence Brand Portal website largely in the past month onto Wikimedia Commons. An administrator on Commons has advised Coldstreamer20 that they are of the view that the Ministry of Defence Illustration Licence is not compatible with Commons. Coldstreamer20 was advised that they could upload a Defence Brand Portal image to Wikipedia as fair use if they complied with Wikipedia's fair use policy. Coldstreamer20 had started to upload images to Wikipedia as fair use, however, they have recently been blocked indefinitely (pending appeal). Coldstreamer20 asked for my advice on whether they should delete the Defence Brand Portal images on Commons and I hastily told them that they should delete the images. Coldstreamer20 has now nominated the images for deletion. I started to have a look at what links to the Commons images and there are many Wikipedia articles. If the images were deleted there would be many articles without images mostly I think in their infoboxes. As Coldstreamer20 substituted these images in articles the existing fair use images that other users had uploaded to Wikipedia were deleted Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#F5 (F5. Orphaned non-free use images) for example this image.

I've asked on the Commons Help Desk if there is a way to resolve this otherwise Wikipedia editors will have to upload replacement images if the Defence Brand Portal images are deleted on Commons.--Melbguy05 (talk) 07:22, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Edited to fix Commons links.--Melbguy05 (talk)
  • Question: Should Coldstreamer20 perhaps be temporarily unblocked with the strict proviso that it would be only to for him to participate in this discussion? (no other editing would be permitted of course) Otherwise, should he wish to contribute to this discussion, would it be permissible for other editor(s) to copy his comments from his talk page over to here? I ask because after reading Melbguy05's comment above, it seems that edits made by Coldstreamer20 could have a significant impact of numerous articles, which might necessitate his participation. - wolf 07:45, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
It seems to be clear that Coldstreamer has made a mess up of this; what can they add in a discussion? If there's anything they need editing back for it would be to sort out this out by removing any badly licenced images they've added to articles. GraemeLeggett (talk) 08:21, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Endorse GraemeLeggett. Coldstreamer20 should not be unblocked. I do not wish to have to go chasing around again after Coldstreamer20 / J-Man11, whose number and lack of comprehension of mistakes, WP:IDHT is practically legendary, this time over images. Buckshot06 (talk) 10:13, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Not long after receiving the advice from the Commons administrator, Coldstreamer20 uploaded an image for No. 1 Parachute Training School RAF to Wikipedia at the existing File:Badge airborne delivery wing 1024x1024.png with a comment that "Better quality image added". However, Coldstreamer20 did not change the image's source URL or what may have been prudent to add an author. WP:FAIRUSE requires the identification of the source. I gave Coldstreamer20, after they had been blocked, a user warning {{Uw-nonfree}} on their talkpage January 2022 Non-free content image for not changing the source. After the initial upload to Wikipedia the following uploads by Coldstreamer20 were as a new image. --Melbguy05 (talk) 10:44, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Sorry, a correction to my above post for the No. 1 Parachute Training School RAF updated version image. Coldstreamer20's initial upload to Wikipedia was a new image File:Royalcots Fusiliers Cap badge.png with a source of "Ministry of Defence Brand Portal" at 20:27, 10 January 2022‎. The uploaded new version of File:Badge airborne delivery wing 1024x1024.png was at 14:26, 11 January 2022 which I count (I may be wrong) was their 19th upload. Also, I thought I had changed the source of all of the uploads to "Defence Brand Portal https://www.defencebrandportal.mod.uk" together with adding "Ministry of Defence" as the author except File:Badge airborne delivery wing 1024x1024.png. I must have overlooked File:Royal_Scots_Fusiliers_Cap_badge.png. I gave Coldstreamer20 the user warning {{Uw-nonfree}} as there had been a pattern of uploading images to Wikipedia that had a source of Defence Brand Portal prior to the Badge_airborne_delivery_wing_1024x1024.png upload and subsequent to that upload. Apologies to Coldstreamer20 for the inaccuracy in my earlier post on the order of their uploads.--Melbguy05 (talk) 02:58, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Opinions requested at requested move[edit]

See Talk:CSS Governor Moore#Requested move 16 January 2022. Hog Farm Talk 19:40, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

WP:South America Articles[edit]

Hey Everyone, per this discussion that occurred last month, I went through all articles in WP:South America and sorted articles geographically. This will hopefully prevent anyone from dealing with confusion about where Central American and Caribbean articles fall in the future. Any thoughts on having a bot go through all the talk pages and having any "Latin-Task-Force" updated to South America? It might be overkill but that was the second or third discussion I remember about the issue. --Molestash (talk) 23:44, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Talk:Battle of Seneffe#Casualties (again)[edit]

Hi all, some eyes would be welcome on this. I am not certain if this is past the point of being constructive and has passed into the realm of disruptive? Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 01:15, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Reliability of navweaps.com[edit]

What is the reliability of navweapons.com? Some documents hosted on it (and apparently originally published there) are cited as sources in the old FA North Carolina-class battleship (listed at WP:URFA/2020A). It appears to be a passion project run by Tony DiGiulian. -Indy beetle (talk) 00:36, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

It should be replaced - there was a time when it was accepted at FAC, but standards have risen since then. I can probably take care of it with Campbell's Naval Weapons of World War II (but it might take me a few days to get to). Parsecboy (talk) 00:52, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
Loaded up website, saw an advert with a woman displaying her genitalia, closed website. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 00:53, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
It's actually navweaps.com - shouldn't be any genitalia there ;) Parsecboy (talk) 00:58, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
Oops for typo. Well, I think we can all agree that gratuitous genitalia displays are also not in line with WP:RS. -Indy beetle (talk) 02:12, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
Except for Gratuitous genitalia display. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:36, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
Well, there go all the FAs I've worked up. Nick-D (talk) 10:10, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Jewish ghettos or Nazi ghettos?[edit]

Sammi Brie's addition at Białystok Ghetto of a much briefer short description than the previous default version from Wikidata was a helpful improvement. I then modified it from "Nazi ghetto in occupied Poland" to "Jewish ghetto in occupied Poland". But after looking at the WP:LEADSENTENCE of the article, which in fact defines it as a "Nazi ghetto", I self-reverted. But I have to admit to being more than a litle surprised at the term "Nazi ghetto", which I suppose means, "Nazi-constructed or -defined ghetto containing Jewish inhabitants", or to my mind, "Jewish ghetto".

As a first-cut search, I checked Ngrams, which shows a roughly 25–1 preference for "Jewish ghetto" (Ditto for a more complex search including the plural.)

Any other kind of encirclement or imprisonment of or enclave with some identifiable group that I'm aware of, names either the place (when talking about a specific one (e.g. "Lodz ghetto") or the group being victimized, encircled, or grouped together, e.g. "Black ghetto" (also: Aboriginal *, Armenian *, Christian *, Hindu *, Kurdish *, Muslim ghetto.

The lead of Ghetto says: "A ghetto, often the ghetto, is a part of a city in which members of a minority group live, especially as a result of political, social, legal, environmental or economic pressure.[1]" The third paragraph says, "The term was originally used for the Venetian Ghetto in Venice, Italy, as early as 1516, to describe the part of the city where Jewish people were restricted to live and thus segregated from other people." But, two sentences later, it goes on: "During the Holocaust, more than 1,000 Nazi ghettos were established to hold Jewish populations, with the goal of exploiting and killing the Jews as part of the Final Solution." citing the US Holocaust Museum, and Yad Vashem, however neither source says "Nazi ghettos". Is this just poor sourcing, and the unsupported wording from Ghetto has gotten picked up and replicated?

I do see some usage of "Nazi ghettos" in books, and I haven't analyzed the frequency, but is it really used that much in reliable sources? The Ngrams link at the top would suggest not. It seems to me that using "Nazi ghettos" and "Jewish ghettos" to describe the same thing is at least problematic. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 04:11, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

"Jewish ghetto" is not a Nazi phenomenon—it includes pre-Nazi Jewish ghettos such as, you mention, the Venetian ghetto. Therefore, "Nazi ghetto" is more precise as it refers only to those ghettos set up by the Nazis. The term "Nazi ghetto" is definitely not a Wikipedia coinage as it is also used in reliable sources and exclusively refers to those ghettos set up by Nazis to confine Jews. I do not think that using different wordings for the same thing is an issue, as long as we're expressing a consistent concept. There are many Wikipedia articles where multiple names or terms are used to express the same underlying concept; it's not a concern which of the names for a thing are used in the reliable source so long as the meaning is accurately conveyed. (t · c) buidhe 04:28, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
Addenum: the term "Nazi ghetto" is likely preferred by some researchers as it clarifies that these ghettos are a Nazi rather than Jewish creation (and not, as Nazi propaganda and some negationist historians have portrayed them, some sort of Jewish self-governing settlement, or "Jewish settlement area") (t · c) buidhe 04:32, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
I based the description on the lead sentence. "Nazi Jewish ghetto" could also be usable while remaining under the SD goal of 40 characters. Sammi Brie (she/her • tc) 04:30, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
@Sammi Brie:, yes, so I noted (after the fact) which is why I self-reverted and thought your change an appropriate one. Mathglot (talk) 05:14, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

CGS Joy Bangla[edit]

I've just created the list of ship launches in 2022 and noticed that CGS Joy Bangla in listed in Category:2022 ships but there is no evidence in the article that she was launched in 2022. From what I can see, her lauch date probably falls in the period 2018-21. Can anyone confirm? Mjroots (talk) 19:23, 19 January 2022 (UTC)